139: Finding Enjoyment in Healthy Habits with Nicole Hagen

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Natalie Tysdal 

Well, Nicole, we are now well into the new year. Some people have probably already fallen off of their plans to be healthy or to maintain a certain diet. But I really just want to be honest today and get into things that work and things that don't work and give people inspiration for getting healthy.

Nicole Hagen

I love that I spent many years pursuing things that I now realize were largely ineffective and detrimental to my health. So we could very easily say that they did not work, at least not longterm. And I'm grateful for that experience because it ultimately helped me to arrive at what does work. So this is a conversation I am very passionate about.

Natalie Tysdal

Well, let's talk about what, first of all, what doesn't work.

Nicole Hagen

Hmm, yeah. So obviously nutrition and health, fitness, it's extremely nuanced. And maybe that's not obvious to everyone. So perhaps I shouldn't have led with that. But nutrition, what works for one person, what works for another person is individual. I...

I'm going to speak to largely what the research shows is ineffective, and that is anything that is unsustainable. So something that I might be drawn to because it's very strict, and it comes with rigid rules for me to follow. And if I don't follow them, then I have to start all over again. Our brain sort of like that all or nothing, give me the plan, tell me what to do. However,

The problem with those types of diets and plans and programs is that they don't have any longevity. Because while many of us can be super aggressive and strict and adhere to a plan for a short period of time, then we're invited out to dinner or our kid gets sick or we just have a really stressful day at work and we're unable to follow through with the plan perfectly. I'm using air quotes.

Nicole Hagen 

And so then we feel like we've fallen off the wagon, we've failed, we've just basically confirmed that we don't have what it takes, and inevitably we start searching for the next right thing, which is just more of the same, right? More strict, more aggressive rules to follow that don't really allow for fluidity and the flexibility that comes with normal human life. We need to be able to have hard days, hard weeks, bumps in the road, and still keep going, still show up for ourselves, whether that's.

With regards to what we're eating or how we're moving. So I would say the number one thing that does not work, and this is why research shows us that 80 to 95% of people when they start a nutrition resolution end up not being successful with it, or if they had a goal to lose weight, they end up losing it, but then regaining that weight and potentially even more. It's because the plan or the program that they subscribed to had no sustainability. So it wasn't something that they could see themselves sticking with long-term.

Nicole Hagen 

Have you found that maybe personally?

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah, I have. And you know, it's funny because of course, there have been fads over the years. We all know that. And one that works for someone, like some people don't have trouble cutting out carbs. For others, it's like, that's really, really hard. And it's really like, what works? What can you live with and still feel like you're enjoying life?

Nicole Hagen

Exactly. And I think that's where it comes down to asking ourselves, well, what can I see myself sticking with long-term? Like you mentioned, if you love carbohydrates and your body really thrives on carbohydrates, some of us are more carb tolerant than others. A low carb or a no carb diet is likely not going to be very successful for you. Nor is it going to feel great. Your body is not going to function optimally. Whereas the next person, maybe they're more sedentary. They're not as physically active, perhaps genetically.

Nicole Hagen 

respond better to a lower carb diet, it may work for them. But again, thinking through what am I able to continue doing long-term, that's probably not gonna be cutting out an entire food group completely. So those very, very extreme ends of the spectrum almost never work. However, finding what does work is different.

Nicole Hagen

person to person based on our preferences, based on our lifestyles, based on our genetics, what our day to day looks like. You know, am I in an office where I have to sit for eight to 10 hours a day, or am I on my feet for the entire day? All of those things need to be factored in when we're talking about nutrition and physical activity.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah, well that's a pretty big one of what doesn't work. So keep that in mind everyone. But what else have you found in your profession, expertise, working with many, many people, just doesn't work?

Nicole Hagen 

What doesn't work is when it's not enjoyable.

Nicole Hagen 

So if you are subscribing to a diet that is encouraging you to eat foods you genuinely do not enjoy or you don't like, again, this comes back to the sustainability factor, but if you're not looking forward to the meals and the snacks that you get to eat, that is not gonna work, right? You have to be enticed by your meals. If you are trying to force yourself to exercise or do some type of movement that you genuinely have to just scrape yourself off the floor to get yourself to do

Nicole Hagen 

not something that you enjoy, that's not going to work. And the beautiful part is there's so much variability in what can work.

So even if one thing, let's say running, is not for me and I really despise running, but I feel like I have to force myself to run, once I accept, okay, I don't have to run in order to reach my goals, we start to see all of these other options that are possible. All of these other forms of movement and cardio and maybe even things that don't even feel like exercise, like dancing, becomes an option that then I look forward to doing. And do you know what? This probably doesn't come as a surprise, but when I look forward to doing something or I enjoy something, I'm more likely to keep doing it which then creates what works.

Natalie Tysdal

Okay, so let's move into that and especially newer findings or newer diets or newer supplements or what have you found does work.

Nicole Hagen 

So if we look at what the literature says, if we're talking about what works, we have to define first and foremost what the goal is. What does works actually mean? So the majority of clients that I work with and I have the pleasure of connecting with on a regular basis are looking to create healthy relationships with food. So many of them have spent years, sometimes even decades, subscribing to diet culture, where they have previously followed those very rigid aggressive rules only left them feeling fearful, guilty, and maybe even obsessed by food. Or things that have to do with food, like how many calories am I consuming? Are the carbs too high in this thing? They don't want to think about that anymore. They want to reserve that brain space for things that truly matter in their lives, like their family, their occupations, things of that nature.

So they want to create a healthy relationship with food and they still want to feel, look and perform their best. So how they move matters to them. How they feel in their clothes and out of clothes matters to them. And if we take that as kind of our broad definition in terms of, well, what works? What is the overarching goal here? First and foremost is something that doesn't dictate we have to eat a certain quantity or we have to eat a certain number of times every day. Because like we talked about before, there's no sustainability in that because one person may have time to or may prefer to eat once or twice a day, whereas another person may prefer to or have time to eat four or five times a day. So we have to have flexibility. There has to be opportunity for us to cater our plan or our program to what works best for our life. So we need some flexibility with any nutrition strategy.

Nicole Hagen 

And this is where most conventional diets fail. It's sort of a do this if you don't, you're doomed. Start over again. And that just doesn't work. If we're talking about nutrition specifics, making sure that you're getting enough protein is largely beneficial to pretty much everyone. And that can look different. Generally the guideline is 0.7 grams of protein per pound of body weight as an ideal quantity of protein. If we're looking at just the daily value of what we

Nicole Hagen 

maybe need to survive, not the same as what we need to thrive. So we want to make sure that at most meals and snacks, we're incorporating some source of protein. And again, that could be an animal source of protein. It could be a plant-based source of protein, whatever your system responds best to. And speaking of plants, getting enough fiber is something that again, benefits almost everyone. There are a few exceptional cases, you know, people who have IBS and belly type things like gastroparesis, but outside of that,

Nicole Hagen 

the average individual can largely benefit from eating more fiber, which does come from plants, fruits and vegetables, legumes, beans, things of that nature, but also can come from smart carbs or what the world refers to as complex carbohydrates. So things like potatoes and oats and rice and quinoa and couscous and whole grain bread products. So a lot of us, if we think about what is consumed most often in the American diet,

Nicole Hagen 

is carbohydrate and fat, not protein and fiber dominant food sources. So we just kind of want to boost those two things. They leave us feeling better energetically and they help our digestive system to function optimally. So we're less likely to deal with some of that uncomfortable unpleasant stuff like bloating and gas and just not feeling 100% our best in our bodies. And they also help to keep us satiated.

Nicole Hagen

And I don't know about you, but when I'm hungry, I'm not my best self. I'm constantly thinking about other things. When can I get food? I maybe get a little moody. And so if we're making sure that we're nourishing our bodies with a sufficient amount of protein, a sufficient amount of fiber, and of course a sufficient amount of food overall, so making sure that I'm listening and honoring my hunger and fullness cues, I am eating when I'm hungry not just chewing a piece of gum to distract myself from feeling hungry. I am stopping when I'm satisfied as opposed to continuing to eat until the plate is clear or the plate is finished. Those three things are going to work for pretty much everyone.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah, such good sound advice. There are so many things with technology, let's go this way for a minute, that can be helpful and I know can also create an obsessive nature. But there are things that have certainly helped me in understanding, for instance, you said how much protein you should have. Well, if you've got an app and you put in or you take a picture of everything you eat, then you're better understanding, oh, I'm almost at that level.

So tell me about technology and what you advise people and how that can help you with your goals.

Nicole Hagen 

Yes, so my personal experience with tracking apps like something similar to MyFitnessPal or LoseIt or two very, very common apps is both positive and negative. And I find that depending on the person, individuality comes back into play. The same is true for many people. At their core, tracking apps like MyFitnessPal are entirely neutral. They are tools that can serve us.

And they are tools that when abused or used incorrectly can be detrimental to our progress, to our health, be that mental or physical. So like you were alluding to, Natalie, it can be a positive thing when we use it as a tool to provide us with objective information. So I may, and I find that this is true for a lot of people, not have any idea.

How much protein I'm currently consuming and whether that's an optimal amount, whether it's an ideal amount or whether it falls below that or surpasses that, which is very rare.

Nicole Hagen 

So if I use an app to log my food for a period of time, do what I call an audit, so maybe for three to five days, I'm just gonna record my food objectively, I'm not shaming my choices, I'm not blaming myself for having that cookie after dinner, none of that. I just wanna put everything in there as accurately as I can and then step back and say, okay, what does this information tell me? Does the app, revealed to me that I'm not eating enough protein. Could that be why I'm constantly hungry all the time? Or could that be why I'm maybe struggling with recurring injuries, even though I'm training and being physically active? We can also use the app for many other things like am I consuming enough fiber? Do I notice that on the days when I skip breakfast?

I tend to eat a lot of snacks after dinner and I kind of feel unsatiable. I can use that feedback to then apply it moving forward and create change, create new habits in my dietary patterns, in my relationship with food so that they serve me better. I could also.

Nicole Hagen 

And I think this is where when we bring morality into play and I start to judge my choices and I start to think the way that diet culture teaches us to think in terms of, well, these foods are good and those foods are bad and I'm bad for eating this or I'm good for eating that, it can become a slippery slope. And this is where my history has taken me. So I started logging neutrally and then it quickly turned into, oh no, I ate more than what this app told me I should eat today. I'm bad. I did a bad thing.

Nicole Hagen 

I should exercise more to, air quote, make up for it. Or tomorrow I need to do better. I need to punish myself by eating fewer calories. That becomes very, very detrimental, mentally and physically. Sometimes tracking in these types of apps can feel somewhat obsessive. We start to seek our validation from this external locus of control. And an app is...

Fallible, right? It's based off of an equation that doesn't perfectly understand our bodies. There's so much nuance to nutrition. Why did I choose that thing? Did it mean something to me emotionally, even though it didn't have a ton of benefit nutritionally? Well, that's something to consider. And we find that if we don't take that objective look at the information we're collecting, it tends to do more detriment than benefit. And we start to judge ourselves and our decisions with the information that the app is yielding. So if that's the case, we start to then transition into disordered eating territory. We become reliant on the app. We feel like we can't eat out or eat anything unless we track it or we see exactly how many calories are in it. And that's when it becomes icky. And I would recommend anyone who's in that position work on weaning off of the app.

Nicole Hagen 

Easier said than done, of course. But like I mentioned, there are pros and cons, and it's all about how we use it. The apps themselves, neutral, but how we use it can either be helpful or harmful.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah. And I would say for most people, you have to understand before you know what's helping you. And so if the tracking can begin that understanding of, oh, I didn't really realize that much protein was in there. I didn't realize like I'm working on this with my teenage son. How much protein versus junk food do you really need? And if I can't get him to even use the app, because if you're tracking it to begin with you're filling yourself with knowledge of what's good, what's bad. And sometimes that's just hard. You don't realize how much of certain things you eat because maybe you're eating mindlessly or maybe you're eating in the car mindlessly or while working or while watching TV, which I know is a whole other issue for a lot of people, but mindfulness.

Nicole Hagen 

It's accountability. Yes. Yeah. It gives us information that otherwise, like you said, we might be so busy or so otherwise focused on something else that we completely miss what's going on.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah. So of the technology, you mentioned MyFitnessPal, LoseIt. If people want to try this because they think I want the knowledge and then maybe I'll wean myself off of it, are there other things that you advise people that can help them when they're trying to get on track?

Nicole Hagen

I think figuring out what feels the most life-giving to you. So if you have a history of maybe tracking and taking things a little bit too far, or if you know that you tend to get somewhat obsessive or compulsive when it comes to numbers, I actually wouldn't recommend an app. That doesn't mean you can't collect the same feedback.

in a similar way. So for example, I had a coaching call earlier today, Natalie, and I was asking this client to simply just write things down on a sticky note whenever she was eating outside of a meal time. She raised what she thought was a concern to me where she was having lots of bites and licks and tastes off of her children's plates throughout the day. And it wasn't part of her meal, but she felt as though they were adding up in a quantity that wasn't feeling great for her. So I said, well, why don't we just raise some awareness by writing it down on a little sticky note. You could choose to take a picture of it instead. You could put it on an Excel spreadsheet, whatever makes sense for your brain. But she was going to use a little notepad or sticky note in her kitchen just to bring awareness every single time she ate something off of a child's plate or grab something while she was baking or cooking and just write it down. That can be equally as helpful. So I find some clients prefer pen and paper. They don't want all of the information that comes with the app. If you don't have a negative history.

Nicole Hagen

with tracking or you feel like it could be very beneficial to have the tracking on your phone. MyFitnessPal is probably the most widely known app. They have a free version. So for anyone out there who's looking to experiment with this, I would certainly advise not paying for an app and just using the free version to see what you get out of it instead. Lose It and Chronometer are probably the top three that I have researched and have clients who utilize and enjoy the apps. And again, I think what we can get from this is, well, what am I eating, first of all, and is that serving me? The choices I'm making, are they mostly whole food choices that leave me feeling good? Are they mostly, you know, process packaged things that don't leave me feeling my greatest? Or...

Am I finding that maybe there's some small adjustments that I could make easily without sacrificing some of my favorite foods? Second to that is what about quantities? Am I eating enough of the things my body needs? So we mentioned protein. What about carbohydrates? Lots of us love carbs, but if our diet is 90% carbohydrate, we may not be feeling the greatest. So protein, fiber, carbohydrate, fat, am I getting enough of what I need? And if not, how can I make some small adjustments to see? So that's where I would start anybody who's just wanting to track.

Natalie Tysdal

And I was trying to remember the name of the app. We used my family for a long time. It's very similar to MyFitnessPal. And what I liked about it in the beginning is, and I think MyFitnessPal does this too, is you take a picture of the barcode on what you're eating. And so then it tracks all those nutrients. And sometimes we just don't realize, especially at barcodes, like, oh, that actually did have some protein in it, or that had a lot of fat in it, or had, and we don't, I mean, we look at labels, but do we really know all of that. So it can be helpful in the beginning, and again, just understanding how these things work.

Nicole Hagen

Absolutely. Actually, I think this is, don't quote me on this, but I'm almost positive that the barcode scanning feature is now a paid feature. So in MyFitnessPal, I think you have to pay to access that, but I do have many clients who have trialed MyFitnessPal, chosen to stick with it, and they love that feature.

Natalie Tysdal 

Oh, is it?

Natalie Tysdal

They use that it is pretty it is pretty handy for sure.

Nicole Hagen 

You can also, I know a lot of clients are like, well, that would never work for me because I use my own recipes, but you can also input a recipe that you use either off of the internet from a URL or if it's a family recipe, you can do that too.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah. So give me some other tips for the new year. Give some inspiration to people who want to try something new. I've been a health reporter for so many years that I've seen success in different programs and some of us do just need a program. It's like I can try to be good, but if I have something to follow, then it feels like I'll be more successful. So I've often found over the years in, again, talking with doctors and many, many professionals and authors, the Mediterranean diet is a very healthy way of living. Give us some other ways, if people just need something to follow for some inspiration.

Nicole Hagen

Sure. Actually speaking of the Mediterranean diet, I just did a, well, I say just now as we're recording, I was answering the most commonly asked weight loss questions. And of course, one of those questions was what is the best diet for weight loss? And if we look at the research as a whole, the Mediterranean diet certainly tops that list. Not because there's anything magical about the Mediterranean diet, but because it's primarily whole foods, you're prioritizing protein, you're getting your fruits and veggies and you're getting your healthy fats. And there's minimal process foods. So that is a great goal to strive for most of us. The advice that I would give someone if they were starting out and we're talking about it's January, my motivation is high, I want to create some change but I also want that to be effective. I want to create change that actually lasts and sticks around, not the change that we create for 15 to 30 days until we fall off the wagon and then start all over again. My suggestion would be start smaller, taking one or two baby steps towards your goals rather than starting with 17 new things you're committing to. So nutritionally, I wouldn't recommend trying to eat more protein and trying to eat more vegetables and trying to go to the gym and trying to drink more water and trying to cut out the ice cream you have every night after dinner. Pick one, maybe two. Research shows that multitasking is largely ineffective when we're trying to create behavior change. So starting with one thing.

Growing that habit, growing that skill to the point where we feel somewhat proficient with it. And then adding a second focus is way more effective than trying to do two or three or four things simultaneously because of course our attention is divided. That doesn't feel sexy. I get it. We wanna like revamp everything at the beginning, but if we're talking about what doesn't work, that would be one of the things on the list. So start smaller than you want to and recruit accountability.

Now as a coach, I'm totally biased. I think having a coach in your corner is one of the best things that you can do. I have a coach in my corner, even though I am a coach, simply because we are really terrible at holding ourselves accountable. Because if we have an excuse or a lack of motivation, we're more likely to believe that if we're the ones telling ourselves, ah, you could do it tomorrow, right? Don't worry about it today. But if I have accountability outside of myself, whether that's a workout buddy, or it's something like a tracking tool that I'm using, I have to log my workout for the day, or I'm going to log what I ate today, or it's something like a mentor, a coach, someone who is walking alongside of you on this journey, helping you to turn your failures or your mistakes, your missteps into feedback that you can apply moving forward, you are going to be more successful at creating the change you want and you're going to be held back for less time when you do hit bumps along the road. So start smaller than you want to. Recruit external accountability and remember this is kind of a mindset one.

Nicole Hagen 

You don't have to show up perfectly. Nobody shows up perfectly. Even people with the healthiest relationships with food, in the hottest bodies, the people that you aspire to look like or show up like or eat like, they too are imperfect. They have sick days. They have deadlines that take over their lives and they don't get to the gym or they have to order takeout when they really wanted to make that meal at home. And again, if we look at what conventional diet culture tells us, that's...

Nicole Hagen 

bad, that's failure. You now have just destroyed all progress and you have to start all over again. And what we see is that's not the case. We can either choose a fixed mindset, which says, oh no, I didn't do the thing that I wanted to do. I didn't do the thing I said I was going to do. Now I'm going to start all over again and basically spend our entire lives on what I call the diet culture roller coaster ride, stopping and starting, stopping and starting. Or we can have a growth mindset that says, oof, that.

Nicole Hagen 

wasn't the way I wanted that to go. That didn't feel good. I didn't honor that commitment. I didn't honor that promise to myself. Here's what I'm going to do differently moving forward. And I'm just gonna pick right back up with what I want for my future self with my next choice. That is one of the...

Nicole Hagen 

biggest hacks, if you will, that I would share with anyone who wants to create long-term success is you've got to change your mindset to accept you can mess up and not do the thing that you said you were going to do as long as you don't let it completely derail everything for days, weeks, months at a time. And you just pick yourself right back up, wipe the slate clean and keep going.

Natalie Tysdal 

So important, we call that the reset button in my family. Like it's fine, just push the reset button, it's okay. You mentioned like that accountability and that can be done in so many different ways. I mean having a partner, having a coach, my daughter is on a college lacrosse team and they're on holiday break right now, but they're gonna go back into season. So they have to hold each other accountable. So they have, I think it's a group me, but a message where you have to send a picture to the group every day of your workout, where you are, what you're doing, it's that accountability.

That could be your neighbor, your friend or whatever, but just some accountability somewhere.

Nicole Hagen 

so powerful. I have clients who send me their sweaty selfies speaking of your daughter after they do the workout. They don't need to do that. But it's an extra surge of validation for them to be like, Look what I did, I did what I said I was gonna do. And they're also knowing that I'm there expecting that message even when their thoughts are like, hmm, but it would be more cozy to stay on the couch. Exactly.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah, I don't want to. Yeah, but if you're expecting that, yeah, or someone who goes with you, a gym partner, whatever that might be. I have a neighbor and we often cook for each other. We both like to be healthy. And it's like, I'm making this. Do you want some? I'm like, yes, and I'll do the same. So to have that and we like to both eat healthy. So anywhere where you can find a friend, a buddy, an accountability, it does certainly help.

Nicole Hagen 

I can't stress that enough. I think so many of us feel somewhat shy or maybe like insecure telling others that we're working towards creating change, especially when it comes to like what we eat or our bodies, if we want to create body composition change. And I get that there's a vulnerability in opening yourself up to someone else. I think it's recognizing the cost benefit analysis. Like, yes, I'm opening myself up to a little bit of vulnerability, but I also am getting so much cheerleading and so much support when I do this. And that is going to propel me closer towards my goal.

Nicole Hagen

And like you mentioned, Natalie, there's so many different ways that we can do that. I know now there's so many different online Facebook groups and online just kind of support groups where you could go and say, hey, here's what I'm making for food prep this weekend, or here's a recipe I tried that I loved, and just sort of share what you're doing to hold yourself accountable.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah. Well, where can people find you for inspiration? I'm following you on Instagram, but tell people where they can find you if they want more.

Nicole Hagen

Yes, I would love that. I hang out on Instagram primarily at Nutrition With Nicole. And I also have a podcast called the Health Wealth and Wisdom Podcast. Wealth is spelled W-E-L-L-T-H, little play on words there. And we're constantly talking about things like you and I are discussing today, Natalie, in terms of nutrition specifics that are evidence-based, what works, what doesn't work, how can we maybe work on some of those limiting beliefs that we have when it comes to mindset

All the fun stuff, all the time. Come hang out with me there. And yes, if you have any questions, feel free to shoot me a DM and say hi.

Natalie Tysdal 

Well, it's so nice to talk to you today. Thanks for the inspiration and all the best in 2024.

Nicole Hagen 

Thank you so much, Natalie.