159: From Baggage to Bliss: How Past Hurts Can Actually Help You with Debra Fileta.

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Natalie Tysdal 

Debra, thanks for coming back on the podcast. We talked last time that you were on about knowing when you need counseling and the importance of finding a faith-based counselor. But I wanna talk today specifically because I know you spend a lot of time with couples and helping our relationships and how you're doing that and advice that you have for people, everybody hits stumbling blocks, right?

Debra 

Yeah, yeah, it's funny. You know, I'm the type of counselor who, on my podcast for the month of February, Valentine's, when everyone else is talking about like fun date night strategies and you know, how to spice up your marriage, I'm out here doing a live on air couples counseling with, you know, couples who are coming on and just talking about the hard things. I just, I don't wanna sugar coat it.

You know, relationships are hard. Relationships are the mirror that God uses to reveal our wounds and our weaknesses. And so we get into relationships and all of a sudden our wounds and weaknesses start to come to the surface, the worst of us, and we're like, the problem is you. You're bringing out the worst in me, right? When really, God in his mercy, is allowing you to see the worst in you that has been hibernating your whole life so that you can start to heal it. So a healthy marriage is really an invitation to heal. Conflict is an invitation to heal. And so that's why I love this stuff. Even on couples therapy, some people are like, you're crazy, I can't believe you have these couples call in and you have no idea what they're gonna talk about. It could be an affair, it could be addiction, it could be anything. And I really don't know. I mean, they come on the show. I'm like, Hey, what's going on? But I love it because to me, it's an invitation, God reveals what he's willing to heal. And so it's like when he brings stuff up, it's a blessing, because now we have the opportunity to heal. And so that's kind of how I view marriage counseling in general. It's two people coming together, acknowledging their junk, their baggage, their weaknesses, their woundings, and inviting the process of healing. And when you begin to get healthy as an individual, guess what? It overflows into your relationships. And so that's the beauty of it.

Natalie Tysdal 

How important is it for people to get, as you just mentioned, that help as an individual before they show up for marriage counseling? Because it takes something just to get there, right?

Debra 

Yeah, yeah, and it really depends on the individual's personal health and journey, their trauma history, their emotional health, their mental health. So oftentimes what I will do when I have a couple that comes in for counseling is we'll have a first appointment together as a couple and kind of talk through what's going on in the conflict cycle that's coming up and what each person adds to that conflict cycle. And then as we move forward, I'll separate them and do individual work with her, individual work with him, and then bring them back together every so often to kind of see where we're at. So I think sometimes couples work alone can mask our need for individual healing because now it's about the marriage problem instead of about me and my problem, my reaction, my triggers, my woundings, my insecurities.

It's easier to say it's about the marriage. Well, this marriage, because it's almost impersonal. I'm putting it on the marriage rather than on me. And so I think it's beautiful to be able to separate and bring you in as individuals. And then it's like, okay, what's on you? Because when we can start dealing with that, it will automatically overflow into your marriage.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah. How often are you finding people see their own issues versus you having to say, you realize you're being this way? I mean, does it come out? Do people go, oh, wow, yeah, I guess I didn't know I was like that. Or did you have to call them out?

Debra 

Most of the time, most of the time, it's helping them realize something they would have missed. For example, I was in a session with a husband and wife and she was saying, he always lets me down. I can never trust him. Whenever I tell him something I need, he never follows through. And I was like, Do you realize how often you say extreme words like always and never and I'm always like this, I never feel supported? That can't be completely honest. You can't have 100% track record and neither can he. Have you ever noticed that you're really extreme? You're very black or white in your thinking and in your processing and how you see the world. It's like, you know, I never thought about that.

I never realized that I'm very extreme. And so then for the next couple of sessions, whenever she would say those words, she would catch herself like, okay, there I go again. Okay, it's not always, you don't always do this, but when you do, this is what I feel. So it's little things like that, that you're so familiar with. Here's the problem. We often get so familiar with what we're used to, that we don't even notice it anymore. It just becomes this behind the scenes, on the back burner, without us even realizing that we're doing it. I have four kids and sometimes I'll hop in my car to take a trip to Target. Target is a therapist's therapy, okay? Like I just need it. I am not getting paid by Target. Take a little break, go walk around a store, any store, even the grocery store. I'm going to go ahead and close the video. And you're not getting paid by Target, but I agree with you.

Natalie Tysdal 

I know.

Debra

But it's funny because on my way to wherever I'm going, my kids love their certain kids' music. And I can have the kids' music on for 20 minutes without realizing, oh my goodness, why am I listening to their music when I could have been listening to my own? Like I could have been listening to a podcast. I could have been listening to Maverick City music. It's because I am so familiar that I tune it out.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yes. Thank you.

Debra

And we do the same thing with our patterns, with our behaviors, with our cycles. We're so familiar with them that we don't even recognize them anymore. We just tune them out, and it sometimes takes somebody to say, have you noticed this? Have you paid attention to this? To bring it to our attention for us to recognize, wait a second, I do need to take ownership of that.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah.

Debra 

that is unhealthy and it's been playing on the back burner of my life because it's so familiar. It's so much easier for us to choose what is familiar over what's healthy. And sometimes the patterns we've had are things we've been doing since childhood. For example, the woman who is a fixer, she just wants to please everybody and fix everything and bring peace because she came from a family that was chaotic and her role was to fix and make peace and make sure everybody was okay. And here she is in her marriage, making sure everybody is okay and everything is as it should be except for herself. But she doesn't even realize she's doing it because she's been living this way for so long. And so this is where I say that marriage and relationships are a mirror, but they also invite us to deeper healing.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah. Give me some more of those. So I relate and I know other people listening going, oh, that's so me. What are some other popular issues? I hesitate to use the word popular, but things the fixer, the person who's not saying, give me some more of those that people might relate to, to realize I could use some help.

Debra 

I'm sorry.

Debra 

Yeah.

Debra 

Well, I think of another couple that I worked with and I had on couples therapy, our couples therapy episodes. The podcast is called Talk To Me, the Deborah Fileta podcast, but we do this series in February with couples. And I think of a couple from last year who she felt neglected by him. She felt like he wasn't emotionally investing. He wasn't giving her enough attention. He wasn't giving her enough emotional connection.

And he was working hard. He was kind of on the workaholic scale, trying hard to provide for his family because that was his version of showing love. If I provide for you, I'm taking care of you. But she wanted to be taken care of in a different way. She wanted to be taken care of emotionally, with his presence, with his attention, with his connection. So they're just missing each other and triggering each other. Whenever he would work hard, she would feel

neglected and whenever she was neglected, she would tell him that she's disappointed and guess what? That would make him feel terrible, make him feel like he's not good enough for her. And then he would feel terrible, which would then make him wanna work harder. And the cycle just continued. So we had to stop and start assessing their patterns. Like, where is this coming from? How long have you been doing this? And not just assessing what they're doing in the present but realizing that a lot of this comes from their past. She comes from a family where there was a lot of emotional neglect. She wasn't paid attention to as a child and she worked really hard to be a straight A student, to be in every sport and to do amazing at everything she did. But no matter how hard she worked, she never got the affirmation she needed. Her parents were just too busy and uninterested.

They were unavailable to her. So she felt neglect her whole childhood, which then creates a sensitivity, a sore spot. And anytime she felt just a hint of that in her marriage, she was not only reacting to the emotional disconnect from her husband, she was also reacting to 25 years of emotional needs that had gone unmet. And that's not fair to him to take responsibility for those 25 years before him. And so sometimes we come into marriage with wounds that we've carried with us from the past. Our partner, maybe they didn't cause those wounds, but they can certainly push up on those wounds, press up against them, and cause us to react. And this is where the conflict cycle ends up happening. It's all of this stuff we're bringing in, and we don't even realize where it's coming from.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah, and giving up on a marriage from something that might be like that. That's why those cycles continue, right? In the next relationship.

Debra 

Exactly, exactly, because we haven't actually healed the wound. And so, so much of marriage work is exposing our wounds and it's not comfortable, but it is so fulfilling and healthy and it's like iron sharpens iron. It's like sandpaper. I mean, every time I feel triggered by my husband, I get an opportunity to stop and address my wounds.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah.

Debra

That doesn't mean he doesn't have any responsibility. My husband still has responsibility, but I have the responsibility of healing the wound while he has the responsibility of being careful with my wounds. And so there's a dual responsibility there, but he wouldn't have to be as careful with my wounds if I would heal my wounds. And so that's where healing, individual healing is so important.

Natalie Tysdal

You talk about that mirror and one thing you just said made me realize like when you're triggered to stop before you bite back and say, wait a minute, why was I triggered by that?

Debra 

Right.

Debra 

Exactly. Why am I having such an extreme emotional reaction to this statement? What's going on? What am I believing about myself? Am I really believing I'm not good enough? Am I believing he doesn't love me? Am I believing something bad is going to happen? Am I believing, you know, there's something wrong with my body? What am I believing and where does it come from? And how can I begin to heal those places?

Natalie Tysdal 

Right.

Natalie Tysdal 

That can be really tough if you stop, especially the heat of the moment, right? When you're about to, when you're arguing, I mean, the worst time to argue is when everybody's heated, like try to walk away, but then there's madness and trying to walk away. But that can be really tough to stop and say, I don't know why, some people might not know why they're triggered by that. And that's that individual therapy, right? Like, I have no idea why that triggered me.

And this is also where counseling comes in handy because it can teach you how to deescalate, how to pause, how to disengage in those moments when you're feeling triggered, how to calm your own body and mind in those moments. It can kind of give you a roadmap so that you can learn how to do it in those moments and then start to do the work because otherwise you just do what you've always done.

Debra 

and the cycle just continues until you feel like there's no hope.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. How much of couples therapy and relationships are the theory of I give what I need? So, you know, the five love languages, we joke about that in my family a lot. It's like my husband knows that if he does a whole lot of work, I'm going to feel really loved. So he likes to do the dishes and help me with the laundry and all of those things. He's like, I know that those acts of service really make you feel loved. Is that, do you believe in that?

theory.

Debra

to give somebody else what they need.

Natalie Tysdal

what you, or so going back saying, I need more physical touch. So I'm going to give that, but that's not really what my husband needs.

Debra 

Right. Well, I guess my theory would be ask for what you need and give the other person what they need. Rather than give what you need, I think it's important to be honest about what you need and just share open communication. It would really mean a lot to me to have more physical touch. It would really mean a lot to me to have more service because if we give what we need...

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah.

Debra

we're not always in tune to what people around us need. And what we need might not be the answer for everybody else because we have our personal stories. We have our personal baggage. We have our trauma. We have our unhealthy narratives and beliefs that we need. So my husband might need words of affirmation. I don't need that as much, but here's what I do need. And so if we're just giving what we need, we're missing each other versus

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah.

Debra

giving what they need, but then sharing what we need. And so it's important to be honest.

Natalie Tysdal 

And that's talking about it. That's like, that's having that conversation and actually knowing. And that communication goes back to the communication element of, I'm gonna tell you what I need. But sometimes, doesn't it feel, or do you find that people don't really know that's what they need?

Debra 

Well, that's the important work is you cannot just play the guessing game. You have to get to know yourself. First and foremost, I wrote a dating book for singles. My very first book is called True Love Dates. And the very first section is about dating inward because you don't know who matches your life and what you need until you know who you are.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah.

Debra 

And it follows us in the marriage. If I don't know, how can I communicate to you what I need? And then it becomes a guessing game for me and even more of a guessing game for my partner. And that's frustrating. So a big part of individual healing is to be able to look at what I bring to the table, what I need, my unique deficits, my weaknesses, my strengths, my narratives, and to be able to know that, to bring that to my...

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah.

Debra 

spouse and say, hey, here's what would be so meaningful from you. I would really appreciate this. And to be able to be very specific about what we need. But you're right, some people are so out of touch with what they need because they've spent their life focusing on everybody else's needs. And so this is where it takes some work.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah. Well, I love what you're doing and listening to your podcast with couples, because in some way we all relate to that and hearing people be very raw about their needs. What else do you have coming up? What other, I know you do workshops and your podcast and you're writing any new books.

Debra 

Yeah, I have a few things around the corner. So my latest book, my last book was called Reset. And I mentioned it on one of your episodes. It's it came out this past year, and it's still kind of brand new. It hasn't even celebrated one year yet. And it's a book about really learning to own your thoughts, understand your feelings, and change your life essentially, because

it starts with what's going on underneath the surface. And even in our marriage, when there's things we wanna change and heal, it's not just about healing the behavior, it's about getting underneath the surface. And so it's a book that will really help you get underneath the surface. There's a whole chapter in there about triggers and what to do when you're triggered and how to handle them and kind of talking you through step-by-step how to pursue emotional healing. And it's funny because it's not a marriage book, but I guarantee if...

Debra 

you each take the time to do the reset, you will find your marriage at a completely different place, even though it's not a marriage book. Because if you take the time to do the individual work, it will overflow into your marriage. So it's a great place to start. We do monthly seminars every month about resetting a different area in your life. This last month, it was about resetting your sex life.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah.

Debra 

This month, it's about resetting your inner critic. Sometimes we have reset your boundaries, reset all kinds of different areas. So each month we kind of focus in on an area, a specific area where somebody needs help and we do a professional seminar on an evening during the month. And it's just been so special to see so many people come out to do the work of healing. I mean, think about it. It could be a Tuesday night, a Friday night, and there's a room full of a few hundred people wanting to do the work of healing. That shows me that things are changing in our culture and it's just so exciting because you could be watching Netflix, you could be doing anything else, but they choose to come and learn and heal. And so that's been so exciting to see. And you know, the next few years I have a few different books coming out. I have six books that I have already written and a few more in the pipeline. So let's...

Natalie Tysdal 

I think that's so good. Yeah.

Debra 

Also really exciting just to see, I wish I could give a sneak peek of what's coming up, but it's a little too early. I have a book coming out in September that I'm so excited about, and I can't wait to share. And I guess the hint is it will teach you how to focus on filling up, especially for those of us who are in the role of constantly pouring out.

Natalie Tysdal

Mmm. Oh, I'm excited for that. So I have to know as a busy mom, I have three. You've got four at home and they're homeschooling and you're writing and you're doing workshops and you're doing your podcast. I've got two at college and I'm still struggling to keep up. So give people for those moms listening, like, how do you do it all? How do you balance it?

Debra 

Yeah, it's my favorite question because I get asked a lot and my answer is I don't do it all. I really don't. I try very hard not to do it all. And I do the few things that God has called me to do. I work two and a half days a week. I am with my kids most of the time and I have learned to say no to so many things. So smaller circles of friends.

smaller commitments, smaller commitments to my kids' activities. Like they don't do a million things because we don't have the luxury of being able to do a million things. We can do the few things that God has called us to do and that's kind of what we focus on and prioritize. So we say no to a whole lot of things and kind of focus in on what God has called us to do. And even when amazing opportunities come up,

I have to say no to a lot of those because I can't do it all. But what's amazing is I have watched God just, you know, I think about when I was a mother of my first book, I was writing my first book while I had a 20 month old and a newborn. All I had was nap time and bedtime. So during naps, I would get my laptop out and I would write.

And of course I'm a mom with boundaries, so my kids always had a nap. I mean, that was like non-negotiable. But I would write during nap time and bedtime. And God took those little loaves and fish that I had. This is all I have, Lord, and he multiplied it. And he still does. Like I look at, like you just listed all these things. And even in my mind, I'm like, that sounds like a lot. But when I look at the little that I have given him.

and I see what he's done with it. I have been faithful to give him the little that I have, 100% of the little bit that I have. And he has been faithful in multiplying it to feed multitudes in a way that I never could have done, absolutely never. And I look at, and I say, all glory to him, because he takes the little bit that we have and he multiplies it. So even if my little bit is 30 minutes today, I'm gonna be faithful with what God has called me to do.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah.

Debra 

and watch him do his thing. So that's my advice is to be faithful with the little that you have and ultimately be faithful to what God has called you to do and not what everybody else thinks you should be doing.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah.

Natalie Tysdal

And we are such a culture that we think more is better and the hustle and the take it on and take everyone else's stuff and get our kids involved in more and competition. And I love, I love what you just said in that advice as I'm like looking across my desk at my to-do list. And it's like all of that just eats at me and I have to put it aside and say, okay, God, what are you calling me to right now?

Debra

Yeah.

Natalie Tysdal

that I can focus on. And I think that's really beautiful. I still don't know how you write with so many kids in the house.

Debra 

Right.

Debra 

Yeah, writing comes easy to me. I'm grateful for that. I've always been a writer. And I set aside, I put it in my schedule. So practically speaking, my Mondays, Monday, Wednesdays are when I work. Wednesdays are my client days. Mondays are my creating days. And so whether it's creating podcasts or whether it's writing, depending on the season, right now I'm in creating season. So I've been recording a lot of podcasts, but once I get into writing mode,

Those Mondays will get blocked out and there'll be an eight hour chunk there that I have to commit to writing. And so I really try to block out my schedule and prioritize and not let anything infiltrate those sacred writing sessions.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah, I think that's great advice just very practically too, is to have categories of this time is only for this, everything else goes away. And we think, especially as women, we think we are such good multitaskers. I can do all of these things and do them all at the same time and do them well. And the fact is, we don't do them well.

Debra 

Right.

Debra 

Right, that's the truth. So it's just a matter of kind of focusing in and compartmentalizing and saying a whole lot of no to everything I'm not called to do.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah. Debra, thanks for your time and for making this a priority and giving me just everything here in this podcast. And I enjoy it so much. Continue to follow you. I'm excited for your new book. And I will, yeah, it was a good tease with it. I'm going to be thinking about that. And I'll be sure and put links in the show notes for anyone who wants to get in contact with you and follow you on social media.

Debra

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Debra 

Sounds good. Thank you so much for having me. Take care.

Natalie Tysdal

All right, take care.