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Episode 93: How to Recover from Addiction with Mike Gibson

Brief summary of show:

In this episode, Mike Gibson joins me on the podcast to talk about how to recover from drug and alcohol addiction.

We also touch on how to help our kids who may be struggling.

Mike Gibson earned a scholarship to Cal-Berkeley for football and played for two years before he got drafted by the Philadelphia Eagles in 2008. He played a total of 6 years in the NFL (Eagles, Seattle Seahawks, Arizona Cardinals).

In his third year, he suffered an injury and shortly after got addicted to prescription painkillers. He started at 5 mg of Vicodin and by the time he finished his career was taking a minimum of 300 mg of OxyContin daily.

After he retired, he became a sheriff's deputy, completing his credentials as class president, abusing OxyContin and adderall the entire duration. He was a deputy for under a year before getting asked to resign for his unhealthy habits. This setback turned him to becoming addicted to stronger substances such as heroin and meth. After going in and out of rehab 6 times, in his last session Mike made a breakthrough and has been sober for 5 years. He has worked in treatment centers as an addiction counselor for the entire 5 years he has been sober.

Listen in as we talk about:

  • [3:30] When Mike realized he was addicted to painkillers

  • [5:10] The phenomenon of craving

  • [8:55] How prevalent is alcohol addiction

  • [12:50] The first steps in getting help

  • [15:50] How Mike helps addicts today

  • [18:40] What made it possible for Mike to recover from addiction

  • [22:50] Setting boundaries with your children who may have an addiction

Notes from Natalie:

Connect with Mike Gibson

Connect with Me

View Transcript for this Episode

[00:00:00] Natalie: Mike, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. And this is in my year and a half now of podcasting. This is the first time that I've been able to dive into this topic. And your story really, it convinced me that I need to do this topic on addiction. Can you give us your background?

[00:00:19] Mike: Um, yeah. So, uh, born and raised in Napa, California.

Um, you know, unfortunately have, uh, a history of substance abuse within my family and. Interestingly enough for me, I was kind of like the dorky kid growing up. I was always like the short, stocky kid. Um, got made fun of quite a bit cause I've always been a big guy, a big kid. And uh, you know, I'd seen what addiction had done to my family and, uh, you know, I never wanted to be a part, I never wanted addiction to be a part of my family.

Um, so I stayed away from it for a long time and, You know, eventually, uh, I became addicted, uh, to, uh, prescription pain medication. Um, and that was the result of, of me playing professional football for six years, uh, and just battling through some injuries, doing whatever I could to make it on the field.

And, uh, you know, eventually, Uh, that progressed, um, into using heroin and methamphetamine among other things as well. Um, alcohol was something that I abused, um, and, and a lot of that was a result of things that I was going through, uh, with my own personal mental health. Um, so today I have, uh, five years clean.

Uh, my sobriety date is September 25th, 2017. And, uh, yeah. Love it. Love life. Congratulations.

[00:01:42] Natalie: Yeah, thank you. Five years that that, that's a big deal. When did you realize there was a problem? Did you as a teenager or when you first started playing and hurting and, and needing the medications? Or when did

[00:01:55] Mike: the light bulb go off?

Yeah, so for me, um, like I said, I, I, I never even really drank until I was 20 years old. Um, you know, I wanted to stay away from it because of what it had done to my family. Um, but I didn't really have a sense of what addiction was. And, um, you know, there's, looking back at it now, I could see some things that, uh, you know, I.

Looking back at it now, I realize that whenever I felt uncomfortable within a group setting, uh, I would use a, a, a, a third party substance to get me outta myself, right? Because it changed the way that it made me feel. It made me more outgoing, made me more talkative, um, due to having social anxiety around large groups of people.

Um, so looking back at it now, I see that the other part, uh, was I had been taking, um, I had gotten hurt. I dislocated. And had a torn labor with my hip and, you know, I was doing whatever I could to, to stay on the field. So, um, I had been prescribed medication, um, Vicodin in particular, and was taking it as prescribed.

Um, after about a month and a half, two months of using it, asking for, Hey, this isn't working as well. And so they're like, cool, here you go. Here's just take two more. And then they would up my prescription, not buy a large amount. Um, and I took that. And so I took that throughout the course of the. Now, afterwards, I'm like, I don't want to get addicted to stuff because of what it has done to my family.

So I wanna go home, I'm gonna go home, I'm gonna get off of everything during the off season. And uh, during that process, uh, when I had stopped, I had gotten sick and what they now call is dope sick. And, um, I went to the emergency room and it was. Hey, I don't, I feel like I'm sick. I need some fluids or something.

And uh, the doctor looked at my chart and he's like, how long have you been using these for? And I said, well, I've been using 'em over the course of the season, so six months or so. And he, uh, he's like, well, I think you're chemically dependent upon it. And I'm like, okay, well what can we do to fix it? Um, and that emergency room doctor at the time had prescribed.

30 Vicodin at the time, and it was like, here, take this home. Talk to your primary care physician. Um, now the fear that I had, uh, was going back to Seattle with the Seahawks and saying, Hey, you know, I got a problem. And I, I wasn't like, you know, I wasn't a one percenter on the team. I wasn't the guy that was making millions and had a secure spot on the team.

So I didn't want to go to them and say, Hey, I have this issue. I need help. Because I was afraid that they were gonna cut me and that I wouldn't have a. Um, so I continued along that path and that's when I realized, um, that I had an issue, that I had a real problem on my hand. And, um, I eventually had, uh, failed a drug test.

Um, and so I was, and then I had an appeal for it. So during that five week, uh, period, um, they had tested me five times a month and that's where I realized what I now know is the phenomenon of craving and the phenomenon of craving. , you know, not having this substance, but thinking about it, 24 7, um, on top of having some physical withdrawal.

I got, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Okay. , um, you know, on top of having, uh, like physical withdrawals, uh, you know, constantly thinking about it 24 7 and. . So I, I'd gotten a FedEx from the teams or from the, from the NFL stating you're no longer in the program. And like I said, for the last five weeks, it's literally all I could think about.

So what did I do? Went to a teammate, says, Hey man, I know you got some stuff. Is there any way that I can get some stuff? And from then on it was off to the races.

[00:05:44] Natalie: and you are just in pain. I mean, you, it's one thing to play in the NFL and what your body went through. Mm-hmm. . But there are people I know listening who relate because they have back problems.

Mm-hmm. or they dislocated a shoulder or whatever ever. You know, there are things that people are self-medicating. Mm-hmm. . And then it becomes, as you've mentioned, this mental issue of thinking about it all the time.

[00:06:10] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. No, definitely. And. and I've had multiple surgeries, um, even before I was addicted, right?

And, and I had these surgeries and hated it. Absolutely hated it. Um, so, you know, I, I, I say all the time, I said I became an addict on. On accident, but I be, I stayed an addict due to my own personal choice. Um, you know, or the disease of addiction, right? And the phenomenon of craving and, you know, being unable to get off of it physically.

Um, you know, coming off of opiate withdrawals is by far, um, the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life. Um, and, uh, you know, it's, if I had to, it's like the flu times a. Um, you know, you're not sleeping for days on end, you're sweating. Um, it's brutal. And, uh, the beautiful thing is, is I don't think I'll ever forget that.

And, you know, I, I, I forgot it. I went to treatment six different times. You know, I didn't get it the first time. Um, and that was due to me not working on myself, not working on things I had going on upstairs in my head. Um, dealing with past traumas. And quite frankly, not many consequences. Um, and, uh, my family did a good job of stepping up and, and setting those boundaries.

And, uh, as a result, I had consequences to it.

[00:07:34] Natalie: I wanna ask you about that in a minute, because I know there are people listening who might not personally have an addiction, but they know someone who does and they wanna be able to help them. Mm-hmm. , but, but back just to the addiction and you realizing you needed help going through that, which I can't even imagine, but making it through that, when you reflect back, and, and I know you help people with this now, how p.

is it How, when, even in, in the people that you work with now? Um, as an addiction counselor mm-hmm. , and you can tell me about your job also. And it may have a lot to get to. Yeah. How prevalent is it? What, how, how many people are struggling like you did?

[00:08:13] Mike: Oh man. You know, I wish that, uh, I mean, there's different.

Variations of alcoholism, there's different variations of usage, right. It's, it's every single person that comes to our facility, they have their own story. They have their own different degree of alcoholism. Right. Um, I have a friend

[00:08:31] Natalie: alcohol. We're talking, um, all kinds of prescribed medications. Yeah. . And then when you don't get enough out of that, people start going to harder stuff as you did mm-hmm.

because they're not getting what they need. Um, yeah. They, they want

[00:08:45] Mike: the relief. No, definitely. I think that, um, the, the crackdown on, uh, prescribing opiates, uh, is, is amazing right now. But what I think is a struggle is a lot of people, um, that I've seen go through treatment in particular, it's, they've been getting prescribed these opiates for years, and these doctors have been leading them on knowingly or unknowingly, right?

The, the prescribers are fully aware of what these substances do to people, um, Xanax, any sort of benzodiazepine, uh, you know, they've been all, you go to a psychiatrist, um, And I, uh, I have anxiety. Cool. I'm gonna prescribe you 30 Xanax. You know, there's only two substances that'll kill you during withdrawals, and that's benzodiazepins in alcohol.

Um, you know, heroin will make you feel like you want to die, but it, but it's not gonna kill you. Um, so, but these doctors are prescribing Xanax like. and knowing, farewell, what these substances do to people. Um, and then all of a sudden they hear that these sub they start getting cracked down on, and so they stop prescribing, uh, medication to these clients.

Well, if you're somebody who needs pain medication and you're not getting prescribed pain meds anymore, what's your next choice? Your next choice is heroin. And the heroin's different now from when I was using, you know, now you don't know what you're. Uh, in, in any substances, fentanyl is killing people left and right, and they're cutting it and everything.

Um, cocaine party drugs, uh, you don't know what you're getting when you get a substance. Um, so they're pressing pills to make it look like it's, you know, you're getting an Oxycontin when you're really not. It's partially Oxycontin, but it's also fentanyl. Um, so people scary. So people are using these substances and family members are dying.

Loved ones are dying.

[00:10:41] Natalie: It's such a big story right now. We're starting to finally hear more about it, but it's still a big issue. Mm-hmm. , what? You could just have remained silent. You could have gone through treatment, moved on with your life, gotten an everyday job and moved on with your life, which congratulations that you've gotten through that.

Mm-hmm. , it's just huge, but you've decided to be public about it. You pitched to my podcast and lots of others and, and why and how, how does that feel?

[00:11:10] Mike: You know, it feels good. I think that, um, this disease doesn't discriminate. It doesn't care who you are. It doesn't care what you've done in the past. It doesn't care what your, um, socio socioeconomic background is.

Um, you know, there's. One thing that I, I think has been brought to light over the last few years is, uh, you know, obviously celebrities and, uh, the publicity of it. You know, I've known since I was a kid that celebrities use substances, right? They go to these parties. But, you know, having people that are, uh, in recovery and being outspoken about it, uh, you know, obviously they have a way bigger platform than I do myself.

But the thing is, is, you know, Somebody's out there listening, somebody's out there talking to, um, and dealing with a family member, a loved one. Right? And it's just that, uh, that motivation for, you know, hopefully them to get the help that they need and the stigma of alcoholism, the stigma of, uh, mental health disabilities in general, uh, has starting to, the walls for that have starting to get torn down and,

I think that's important. That, that's one thing, um, that I have seen over the last five, six years, um, has been an increase, uh, in, in the publicity of it, which is huge. Yeah.

[00:12:32] Natalie: Well, how would you advise people to get help If they're listening and they're like, you know, I am addicted. I know I am. And I just dunno what to do about it.

[00:12:40] Mike: Yeah. So, There's, there's plenty of treatment centers out there. There's multiple treatment centers. Uh, you know, do, you can do a quick Google search, um, and find something that's local in your area. Uh, you know, if, if, if you have a county insurance or a county funded insurance, call the one 800 number on the back of the card.

It can be something as simple as that. You know, if you have insurance, call that number on there. If you don't have insurance, there's resources for you out there. Um, it all starts with the phone call. That's, Take a chance. Take a chance on yourself. People who know

[00:13:14] Natalie: that mm-hmm. , they know it, they know the numbers right there.

They know they can Google it. Something holds people back. Yeah. And it did for you for years. Yeah. And it holds other people back. Mm-hmm. . Well, how do you get them past that? How do you motivate them to finally do it?

[00:13:28] Mike: Yeah. You know, I think people struggle with fear. Fear of judgment. Right. And that's something that I've struggled with for a very, very long time.

Um, and looking back on it now, now that I've been. Working in this field of recovery, and I've been in recovery, the amount of, uh, text messages, phone calls that I've gotten from people that I knew, uh, that I, you know, that I didn't realize that they had family members struggling. And they called me and they asked me for help.

Um, so as much as you feel alone in this situation, you're not alone in this situation. Um, and, uh, I, you know, I'd like to say, uh, it's. I would like to say it's easy, but it's not easy. You know, they call it the thousand pound phone for a reason, you know, because picking up that phone, it feels so heavy just to reach out and call for help.

Um, but for me, I got, when I picked up the phone for the last time, I was tired. I was tired of living the lifestyle. I was tired of living in the darkness. Um, and I was ready to change my. You know, I, I promise you, if you go through and you dedicate 100%, um, of everything you got into going into treatment, your life will change.

Um, you know, maybe it was something that didn't happen for me so quickly, you know, it took time, you know, getting certain things back in my life, my life, materialistically will never be the same as what it. I can promise you that. Well, I can't promise you that cuz things could change. Right. Um, but with genuine relations.

But those things don't matter to you as what I'm Exactly. You know, I fancy cars, you know, million dollar home in Napa, which now is nothing right. With the market that is in today. But I lost all those things, you know, and I had flashy cars. Now I drive a 2018 Nissan and. You know, I just was fortunate enough to buy a house, but those are the things that you're able to get back and gain back.

Um, as long as you work. It works if you work it, you know? Um, so it just give it a chance, take a chance on yourself because you deserve it. That's the main thing that I do, Mike. You deserve it. You deserve a good life. And I didn't think that I.

Say that again. I, I, no, I, I said I, somebody told me that you deserve a good life, um mm-hmm. , and, and at the time I didn't think that I did. So that, that was a, uh, that was a big struggle, struggle for me. That was, uh, why when somebody told me that, I'm like, why do I deserve it? What does it make? What is it that makes me so different?

And in reality, it. Doesn't make me different than anybody.

[00:16:22] Natalie: Well, tell us about, uh, your job now, because you went through a couple of iterations of professional life mm-hmm. and found yourself working now, um, with addicts. Tell me what that's,

[00:16:34] Mike: what that's like. Yeah, so I got, so right now I work for a mental health facility located, uh, in San Diego, the mental health center, San Diego is what it's called.

Um, and then I work for a outpatient substance abuse, uh, facility called Healthy Life Recovery and. You know, it was something that when I made my last phone call, the person that, uh, James was named, he was in, uh, Hawaii with his family on vacation. And I just couldn't quite grasp that concept that somebody cared about me that much to pick up the phone while they were on vacation.

Um, and I'm like, that's what I wanted to. I want to help people that work in recovery. So, um, I do community outreach, business development. Um, I work in admissions, uh, getting people into treatment. And if they don't work with our treatment center in particular, or we can't accommodate them in any way, then I get 'em into another treatment center that can best accommodate them.

Um, working in recovery, it's, it's a very emotionally draining job. Uh, It's a very gratifying job seeing people come in, uh, at their worst and then seeing them leave, uh, you know, on that pink cloud or, or an emotionally, uh, a high right? Um, but you see a lot of, uh, retreads or people that have gone into treatment multiple times.

You see a lot of failures, but you see some successes. Um, so if I, if I can make any lasting impact in anybody's life by just picking up a phone. I mean, it, it's something that seems, uh, so simple. Um, but in, in a job description for me, like I said, I get people into treatment. I, I talk with families. Um, I talk with the client, um, if they're from outta state, I work, uh, is something as simple as them.

They've never been to an airport. So I talk them through an airport, uh, what they're gonna need to bring. Um, And, you know, send 'em a diagram of the airport, you know? Okay. So now you're at security. So when you go through security and you call 'em and you talk to 'em and you say, Hey, what you're, where are you standing?

Oh, I'm at Gate A one. Well, okay, I'm in Gate B 19. Okay. So you're gonna go downturn left and you'll see B 19 and then just sit there , stuff like that. Yeah, exactly. So, um, you know, and. For me getting, they, they call it a geographic getting out of the place that you're, uh, currently using or drinking, uh, going somewhere that's completely separate.

You know, it's what I tell people is you deserve the time to work on yourself. I know, uh, somebody told me it's the time for you to be selfish. And I'm like, well, I was selfish for the last 10 years. What are you talking about? And it's like, no, a chance for you to work on yourself. Uh, both physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

Um, so that's what I try to getting people out of their people's places and things. That's the main thing that people struggle with, um, in treatment. That's where I see the most relapse, um, is when they go around the old, the old people. Um, They go see the old places and they keep on doing the same things.

Mm. Yeah. So it's, it's important for them to, to get out of that environment, get around likeminded people that have your best interests at heart.

[00:19:49] Natalie: Yeah. Is there a person or a, a thing or something that made it possible for you that was like, I couldn't have done it without this?

[00:20:01] Mike: The desperation, you know, that that's the reality.

Um, you know, me. Uh, you know, like, like I said, you know, I had all these flashy things, all these materialistic things. I had, um, you know, a beautiful fa I still have a beautiful family. I, luckily, I'm still fortunate and I'm still with my wife after everything that I've put them through. Um, um, but, you know, going into treatment with, all I had was.

Literally two, uh, garbage bags. One full of clothes, one full of shoes, you know. And I spent four months in that treatment center on 160 acres on generators and well water in the middle of nowhere. And, uh, if you wanted to leave, it was a 10 mile hike in either direction. And I'm like, I ain't doing that . So just, just the desperation that, you know, I didn't have a car, I didn't have a, I was, I was.

My name wasn't on a lease and then my name wasn't on a mortgage and I had nowhere to go. And, um, yeah, so the desperation and, and really wanting to change, um, and not feel the way that I did anymore. Um, yeah. You know, finding a higher power, getting around the, uh, right people. Um, getting a sponsor who is non-judgemental and genuinely wanted to see me.

Uh, you know, without my sponsor, I, I would like to say, uh, that I, there's a good chance that I wouldn't be here today. Um, I can almost promise.

[00:21:35] Natalie: So I have hear a lot of tips that you've given. You mentioned boundaries. Mm-hmm. and people setting those boundaries and, you know, I do a lot on parenting here too, and I, I think of like boundaries or love.

Yeah. And, and as much as we push back on them as parent or, um, you know, as a sister or a wife or whatever it is, how did those boundaries. Help you and what suggestions would you have for people who have a loved one or a friend who they know has an addiction problem and they wanna help

[00:22:06] Mike: them? Yeah, so this is one that I deal with a lot.

Um, and what eventually got. Me cleaning. What led me to want is as I had nothing, right? And the reason why I had nothing was my own doing. Um, in terms of materialistic things. Now, I also was, uh, emotionally and spiritually broken. And why is that? Because my family set boundaries, and this is the, um, a lot of the time is the hardest conversations that I have with parents.

Cause I, I don't have kids myself. Um, so that's my disclaimer when I tell this to parents is I say, look, I don't have kids, so I don't know. Um, I can't begin to tell you how hard this might be, but the reality of it is, is I was on the other side of it and when my family said, you can't come around, uh, our house, my wife said, you can't come around me as long as you're using, as long as you, so there was times where I would just disappear, you know, for 38, 40 days, and then I'd call for help.

Hey, I need help, and then I'd eventually go to treatment. My, my brother-in-laws and sister-in-laws saying, Hey, you can't be around your nieces and nephews. You know, we don't even want you in the same town. Um, you can't come to Christmas. You can't go do these things. And at the time it was my mentality was, uh, I was angry.

I was angry at them. Right? And how could they do this to me after everything that I've done for them, you know? Um, But they were just protecting themselves. Um, they were setting boundaries. Uh, now mind you, I wasn't like, I, I'd go around there and I, and I would take things from them, you know, because I needed money to, I didn't have any money, so I needed things to support my habit.

So I wasn't like this saint of a person that they all suddenly just said, no, man, you can't, you can't come around here. We don't want you around here. Um, so that's what. That's what I, uh, tell parents is like, look, my family did it for me. I've been on the other side. That's what drove me to, to need the help.

And it may not happen in an hour, it may not happen in a week, but eventually they're gonna go, man, my, my family has set these boundaries with me. Um, I can't be around them. Um, and my life, what does it come to? You know, for me, I was sleeping in a car. I was. You know, but thank goodness I, I always got help, so I never had to sleep on the street.

Um, but there are people that are out there doing that. And, and they'll, they'll do that until they need the help. And, and one, one thing I think that is important is, and I tell them, I said, look, you're gonna have to set this boundary with your child, um, because you're enabling them, you know, whether you're giving them food, um, whether you're giving them shelter.

If, if they're saving a thousand bucks a month by living at your house rather than paying for themselves and they're spending a thousand dollars on alcohol or drugs and, and, and your kid dies that thousand dollars that they spend on the drugs, that's, that's your money. You know, you just gave 'em a thousand dollars to keep on their habit going if you're buying them food.

I, I had a family, well, we're just giving them like a hundred dollars in food and I said, you know how much a gram heroin. It's a hundred bucks. And that last gram, that last, the snort smoke shot could be his last one. And if you're, if you're okay with having that on your heart, then okay. You know that, that, that could be your a hundred dollars that killed your kid or your loved one.

That's pretty scary, right? But, but that's the reality of it. And, and statistically today, um, the reality of it is, is more people are dying than more people are, are living while using these. Yeah.

[00:25:53] Natalie: Yeah. How are you now in terms of just your happiness, uh, without the material, some of the material things mm-hmm.

compared to where you were 10, 15 years ago?

[00:26:06] Mike: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, um, it's a trip realizing, you know, I, I'm able to go to my, my sister-in-law's house and they're not, You know, and they're like, Hey man, go pick. Go buy our house and go pick this up and then bring it to the park with the nieces and nephews.

Right. And I, the funny thing is, I was just talking about this the other day, is, um, you know, I still get to their house and I'm like, I call 'em when I get there and I run and run out and then I call 'em when I leave. Um, just cuz I still have that, uh, That fear of, of, you know, I'm like, Hey, if something went missing, it wasn't me, I promise

So, um, but just being able to be present, just being able to go trick or treating with, uh, you know, my nieces and nephews, um, is something when my, uh, my oldest niece, she's seven, and when she was born I wasn't really. Um, and since then we have five. And so I'm able to be around. I'm able to go to their soccer games.

I'm able to go to tee-ball games. That, to me is what's awesome, you know, being there. I love you Uncle Mike. That to me is the world. Um, yeah, uh, yeah, it makes me, gets me a little, it makes me happy. . Um, because I,

[00:27:19] Natalie: and you can't replace that. Yeah. You can't replace that, that feeling and how proud they must be of you and you must be of yourself.

Mm-hmm. , like you

[00:27:25] Mike: can't replace that. Yeah. It's, you know. Yeah. To me there's nothing that me being able to be present and being able to help out, um, whenever there's something that somebody needs before they wouldn't call me. You know? Especially when I was playing, cause I was prideful, I was egoistical. It was like, okay, well I'll just pay somebody to do it for.

You know, instead of having, um, me actually be there present, Hey, I need help moving, or I need help moving this couch, or moving this, moving that, I was like, I'll just pay somebody to do it instead of having me actually physically go over there and spend time with them. Yeah. Yeah. Where. Sorry about

[00:28:02] Natalie: that.

And you can't, that that's okay. You can't replace that. Like actually having the person, I mean, money only goes so far. Mm-hmm. , what we want are relationships and trust and um, and that's just

[00:28:14] Mike: so important. Yeah. That, I think that's the, like I said earlier, you know, having, um, genuine relationships with people.

Relat, uh, I think. The biggest, other than like my family, um, you know, genuine relationships with people that truly care about me and have my best interests at heart. Um, I think that's the biggest thing that I've gained. Um, cuz playing football, you get these, you get a lot of relationships and you have people that are always coming at you for, and I'm not, I wasn't even like a big name guy.

I was just a guy, you know, I always had people coming at me from different angles wanting certain things and. It's, it's, uh, it's been an interesting five years. I know that.

[00:29:02] Natalie: Well, I, I know people listening have learned and are inspired and probably wanna follow your story now. So where, where can they find you and do you talk about this on social media or anywhere where, where

[00:29:14] Mike: we can continue to learn?

Yeah, so I, I keep updates and stuff on Facebook. Um, I have a Facebook page. My name is Mike Gibson. Um, or Michael Gibson. Um, I also have a, uh, I. Uh, I've still, I tried to recover my password from Twitter, so one thing I did was, uh, I had all these social media accounts and that's how I used to, you know, run a gun.

And so one thing I had my sponsor do is change all my, uh, passwords on everything so I could never get access to em again. And I'm having, I'm having the dangest time trying to get on that Twitter account, but I'll end up creating a new one Star Fresh. Yeah. Yes. We'll, we'll build it up for you, . We'll follow you.

Right. So yeah, you can follow me on Facebook, um, Instagram as well. Um, I believe my Instagram is Mike dot Gibson 69. Um, okay. So, and um, and yeah, I'd love to help out in any way that I can, you can, you know, personal message me. Um, however it is you need to get ahold of me. Feel free to do.

[00:30:13] Natalie: Well, thanks for all you're doing to help people and give back, and you're an inspiration.

Not everybody gets to where you are and I hope more people

[00:30:20] Mike: can. Yeah. And learn. Thank you. I appreciate it very much. Yep. Great to talk to you. Yeah, definitely.

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