Natalie: Kids are going through puberty earlier than ever before. Why? And what should we be doing as parents and as a community to help them?

Natalie: Hi everyone, it's Natalie. So glad you are joining today. It's finally summer and I can tell you I am so excited for the newness of the summer season. My kids are out of school, at least my two college daughters in Tennessee and Florida.

My middle schooler here in Colorado is almost done and we are gearing up for. Swim team, summer activities, and for me as a teacher, some much needed time off. Of course, I'm not gonna take time off from the podcast, but I'll have time out of the classroom. Today I'm talking to one of my favorite guests, Cheryl Ziegler.

Dr. Cheryl Ziegler. She's been here on the podcast before talking about her book, mommy Burnout. Dr. Ziegler holds a doctorate in psychology and is a licensed professional counselor and a member of the American Psychological Association and the Colorado Association for Play Therapy. She's treated thousands of children, tweens, teens, and their families with a very broad range of issues like anxiety, depression, trauma, bullying, self-harm.

We could talk to her about everything from divorce. Social skills and overall life adjustments. But today we're discussing a topic that she is passionate about and it's becoming increasingly relevant and concerning for parents, and that is early puberty. Dr. Cheryl will be sharing her experience on the causes and effects of early puberty, including the role of environmental toxins, stress.

Socioeconomic status. She's also gonna be providing practical advice for parents and caregivers on how to approach this topic with kids, including things like finding the right language, educating those around them, and addressing anxiety related to social media and current events as it relates to puberty.

I am. So glad you're here. If I haven't said that before, be sure to visit my website for more topics like this and for resources that I know will help you. It's natalie tisdel.com and you'll find many links at natalie tisdel.com/favorites. So let's get started today with Dr. Cheryl Ziegler.

Cheryl, great to have you on again. I don't know if you realized that you were my first podcast recording two years.

Sheryl: Ooh, I, I knew I was maybe one of your first, but not

Natalie: the very first. How excited? My first it was mommy burnout and what a big one. I mean, I still have downloads from that podcast. I'll link it for folks, but you have a new project you're working on, super relevant to the audience who listens to this podcast.

So tell us about it and then let's go a little bit deeper.

Sheryl: Yeah, absolutely. So just like you said I started my writing career talking about moms and their chronic stress and their burnout. And since then I think this happens to most writers. You know, you kind of go like, what's striking me? What do I want to invest my heart and soul into?

Cuz writing a book is like birthing a baby into the world. And so, you know, initially I thought we are in a mental health state of e. We have a massive, you know, mental health crisis, pretty focused on adolescence, 12 to 17. And I wanted to write a book about teens and, and the mental health crisis.

But every time I went to start writing about teens, I thought, wait, but. This advice needs to start earlier. Mm-hmm. This way of parenting or this way of talking to kids, it needs to start earlier. We can't wait until kids are 14, 15 or 16 to go, oh, okay. I think I'm understanding teens now. It's like you have to be a little bit ahead of that.

Mm-hmm. And know that you can set them up for success. And so I got on my path. I, I do love teens and wanting to help create almost a healthy roadmap to mental health for teens. Yeah. So after I realized that all of the, all of the lessons or parenting strategies or things to know about for teens, Really started in middle childhood.

I have been setting on this quest for, I've been researching for probably the last. Six or eight months, really specifically on puberty. And for the last 10 years I've been doing this, start with the talk class. So in my start with the talk class, that's been really like a mother-daughter preparing for the social, emotional and physical changes, A puberty class.

And it's like my favorite thing that I do. So it all came together like yes, I've been talking about puberty and middle childhood and middle school. For a decade and been treating it for 20 years, and I see that, not that I necessarily didn't know it, but now I see it very clearly as, oh yes, we can actually create a roadmap and healthy coping mechanisms and learning things like regulation and understanding race and toxic beauty culture and all these kinds of things.

If you look at that in middle childhood, you set your kid up for success when they become an a.

Natalie: I'm fascinated by this because we hear so much change through puberty physically, but what does that have to do with their mental health specifically? I mean, I've got one right now who's 13 and it's, and it's my third who's a boy. And so I feel like, is this just because he is a boy and I've raised two girls, like it's so d.

Sheryl: Yes, it is so different. So I also have a 13 year old boy right now. But he is the middle and the oldest one is a girl. So, here's some things, here's some differences, here's some things of what to know. So, interestingly, in the United States over the last 100 years, puberty has gotten earlier and earlier and earlier.

So during the pandemic, Endocrinologists. Were seeing parents bringing their kids in at earlier ages, like eight and nine, and saying, oh my gosh, I think they're going through puberty. They're showing these signs, and they had in fact started puberty. So one of the things I first wanna differentiate is that earlier puberty, just, this is the average continuum.

You're gonna be, I think, really surprised what I'm about to say. Average. There's always average dead straight in the middle, and then there's ear, you know, earlier, average, later. Average span for a boy to be in normal puberty is nine to 14. So if your kid is nine, they're in third or fourth grade, and you say they're showing signs of puberty, average earlier, end of average.

Wow. It's not shocking. Now, girls, eight to 12. So we're talking solidly third grade where we're seeing girls start puberty. And let me be clear what puberty is? Puberty, let's say for a girl, sometimes people think that's when they start their menstrual cycle, they get their period. It's not puberty. You don't get, if you're a girl, you have your first signs of puberty, and then about two years later, on average, you would get then start your menstrual cycle.

So that means if you have an 11 year. Who has her period. That means she probably started puberty though at nine.

And why does that matter to mental health? Because. The changes are all occurring in the brain. This is a very neurological process. Mm-hmm. And so if you have a nine year old who's exposed to all the things in the world, so the violence that's happening, school shootings, climate anxiety, all of these things that they're bombarded with social media stresses, and she's nine.

And she's developing and she is pushing away from parents cuz that's independence. And then wanting to gain the identity that you would normally in adolescence. But now things are happening earlier. So all of a sudden identity is becoming important at an earlier age. You have this generation of kids that's overwhelmed, totally anxious, feels tons of pressure, has depression, and then eating disorders.

We've got this, section of kids in middle childhood that are potentially developing earlier and even if they're not developing earlier mm-hmm. The person next to them is the boy behind them is and so it's happening Oh yeah. Around them. Right. I mean, I was just in my son, I do have a 10 year old son.

I was in his fourth grade class a couple of weeks ago volunteering. There were distinctly out of 21 kids in this class. There were two girls that literally looked like middle schoolers and little do they know what I'm thinking, I'm. You are going through earlier puberty. They are fully developed, fully physically developed, and this is why this is important.

Do teachers, do parents, do adults, do coaches, do they treat those girls like they're 10, they could have even been nine, or do you then start adult justifying kids? We know through the research that girls get sexualized earlier if they develop. That they lose their childhood. One of my missions is to preserve childhood for kids.

And so if you are developing earlier and you're going through not just physical changes but brain changes as well, the research shows some really distinct things that it's, it, it's like a flooding. They can't, they're not ready yet to process. All of these things are being exposed to, particularly because of social media, but just in, in general, it's like, yeah, my body's developing and my brain is developing, but I'm not quite processing this because I don't get mm-hmm.

Half those skills. That should be two or three years from now, not an early, you know, mid elementary school.

Natalie: wow. I mean, I am blown away because I'm thinking, okay, so my son is 13, but if I think of these kids in fourth and fifth grade, we're treating them like they're babies.

I mean, I know I'm exaggerating babies, but we're, you know, we're still treating them like we were treated when we were in elementary school and young, and babying them and doing things for them. So what do we do?

How do we help them through this? How do we parent.

Sheryl: So it's a great question. So let's, I talked about girls and, and they're developing bodies and how they get sexualized.

Interestingly, and, and the research in, in psychological research have been studying this for, for really decades. So there's different outcomes and there's different trajectories for boys and girls. Girls in earlier puberty. So not early puberty. Early puberty is called precocious puberty. That's a medical term.

For girls, it would be seven and under. For boys it would be eight and under that it. Fairly rare, but it still happens and, and that's a difference called central precocious puberty. I'm talking about average, but earlier, end of average puberty. Right? So for your son or for boys, it's interesting. If a boy develops earlier, guess what happens?

It's positive. Oh, you're the tallest boy in the class. You're starting to develop muscles. Look at you tallest, and your voice has dropped. Yeah, your voice has dropped. You're getting older. Maybe you should play up in sports, right? Mm-hmm. People love big boys, right? But what comes along with big boys too, is the testosterone, the aggress.

So if we're talking about, for example, your 13 year old son, let's just say you're going, yeah, he's in puberty, right? Which would be very average if he was, if he's in puberty right now, does he know how to manage his testosterone? Does he have aggressive rageful drives? That would be normal. It's our job to not pathologize.

It's our job to say, Hey bud, there's something, there's a warm room called testosterone that your body is producing at higher rates right now. Right? You use, you use your words, right? And so what that can mean is that at times when I maybe think that you're irritable or you're grumpy or grouchy, you could also be having a testosterone search.

Do you know what to do when you have feel really angry feelings and. So I'll just pause there. What would, what do you imagine that kind of conversation could be like, let's say with your son?

Natalie: Well, what's great about it is it's, it's putting words to those feelings. So I, I haven't done that. I mean, he's, you know, it's, he's kind of up and down like most.

12, 13 year old boys are, but for me to be able to say physically, let's talk about why you're up and down. It's probably testosterone. Like I, no, I haven't had that conversation. As I imagine most parents haven't.

Sheryl: Absolutely. And that's why I'm so thrilled, you know, for people listening, I was telling Natalie, oh, this book I'm writing, it won't be even be out till next year.

And she says, oh, you said to me, you know, most people don't talk. And I said, I just like, I can't keep this in for myself anymore. I want to share this with people. I also want. The feedback on this because it's like I've been doing this one-on-one with families for, for so long and giving them language for their boys, raising boys.

I do a lot of work with girls, but I also do a lot of work with boys and that's the nice thing is that I'm writing about boys and girls not separating them out. Mm-hmm. I think it's important you have both, you know, two girls and a boy, and I have a girl and two boys, but we all need to know what's happening with the.

Gender. Absolutely right. We need to

Natalie: understand, well for them to know for, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I just had, I had this thought like it's important for him to know when girls are emotional. It might be because they're starting their cycle and it might for them to understand what they're dealing with with kids at school and why they might be insecure or emotional rollercoaster.

Same.

Sheryl: Absolutely. Like what all we know, I, I think right now is that oh, tweens and teens, they're moody and oh girls around their cycle, they can be emotional. And it's almost like, sort of, kind of the education's out there, but it's also really stigmatized, right? Like it's, and boys are just, you know, angry boys are angry and aggressive and girls are emotional.

Emotional, right? And so that's, I'm like, oh wait, our kids can handle the knowledge of the why. Mm-hmm. Well, why are they, oh, remember buddy, how I talked about how you have testosterone. Girls also have a little testosterone, but they also have this hormone called estrogen, and this is what estrogen does.

It, it makes us emotional. It helps us with bon. It's beautiful what estrogen does. And when your body's first getting used to that estrogen, coming through through it and figuring out emotions and maybe being more sensitive, we respond. Like I'm telling you that, and I hope what you hear is like, oh, okay.

I'm not labeling it. I'm not hopefully stigmatizing it. I'm not making, it's not a bad thing. It's just here's what's happening. So here's what's happening to the girls in your class. Here's what's happening to the voice in your class. Here's what's happening to you sometimes, and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong.

You're not bad. This is normal. What's not normal is we don't teach particularly boys. How to deal with it. So just because it's normal that boys can have these surges of testosterone and that may be a part of why they are more aggressive and we, we can't take away the boyness out of them. That's what it means to be a boy.

Now it's my job as your parent to help you manage that. And that's what I think, in part, there's so many things, but in part we can do such a service for our youth, which is to teach them what's happening to their bodies and how to best manage it. There's nothing wrong. That's part of what the message is like.

Like yes, we are in a youth mental health crisis and sometimes. There is something wrong, and then we need to know how to talk about that. I have lots of sample scripts and things like that, that I'm putting together right now. Mm-hmm. Like last night I worked on, you know, how to tell your kid like they've got pretty serious acne and what, how are you gonna approach them?

You know, like, so I do everything from that to the serious mental health stuff. So, I think coming at it from the lens of let's all assume that what, where we're starting from, whenever you see those first early signs of puberty, it's normal. I'm gonna help you through it. I'm gonna make sense of it. I'm not gonna give you any messages that there's quote something wrong.

You just need new tools, need new tools. When you're 13, the ones that you used when you, your eight might not work. Just like the tools we used when we were 18 might not work anymore in our forties. Like that's just the way life goes. We evolve and I just want that paradigm shift that some of these things that are happening in earlier puberty, there's nothing wrong.

We have to know how to teach them what to do with it and, and how to keep evolving with it. And then what happens when you do that middle C. You have a much better probability that you're gonna have the right tools at the right time when you're a teenager. And the stakes are pretty high. Yeah.

Natalie: Oh yeah.

Really high for teenagers. Now so, so many things have come to mind as you're saying this. First of all, we as parents haven't changed. The school systems are still doing their little block on sex ed at the same time, seventh. Sometimes sixth, seventh grade, I think. Yeah. So huge difference there.

Do we need to shift everything younger so they understand this at what age?

Sheryl: Yeah. So if, we go by what the data says and we say it is normal for a girl to start puberty at eight and a boy to started at nine, yes, it's early if that's on the early end, but that would be within the norm. I think this is a third, fourth. And we are so far from it, and I think people are scared about it.

It's not, I wouldn't call it sex ed. I've been doing my class, my puberty class for 10 years, and I don't talk about sex. I only talk about. Social, emotional and physical changes that happened during puberty. And why do I wanna, I mean, third, when I created this class, third grade seems so young. I will never forget.

Literally the first time I had a third grader there. I thought, this is too young. This is too young. What am I doing with a third grader here? But that third grader was starting puberty. So her mom had signed up and she had a fifth grader, and she. I know this is gonna sound really funny, but I almost feel like my third grader needs it more than my fifth one.

And if you're thinking right now, well, how do I know? Right? Like

someone might be listening and be like, well, how would I know? How do I know if they're starting puberty? Mm-hmm. How would I know if my third grader. It does start with those moods you, if you're paying attention, and that's what I'm gonna provide.

Mm-hmm. Like those early signs. Right. Besides physical, because there's physical signs, but then there's also the emotional cognitive signs.

Natalie: So I feel like the question we haven't asked is we should have asked this to begin with, why are kids going through puberty so much younger? Is it what's in our food? Is it our environment? What

Sheryl: is it? Do we know? Oh, yes. Well, you know what's interesting is there's not one definitive answer as of today.

There are some leading Correlated factors. And so you said, is it something that we eat? Well, lo and behold, the hormones in our food is thought to be. One potential factor. Okay? And this is one of those controversial topics. I really just try to go by the research. The research says, interestingly, I'll combine food and environmental toxins cuz they're both separate.

They're not really theories, but they're, they're leading causes, right? So in terms of our food, somebody asked me, oh my gosh, do we, do we really have to run out and eat all organic? So here's what it appears that the. Moderate answer to that question is okay. What I have found the most moderate answer would be you want to at least try to have dairy and meat products that do that.

Were not treated with hormones, so you know how like sometimes it's not organic milk, but they'll be a little circle and it'll say, not treated with hormones. Mm-hmm. And they'll sometimes list the types. Mm-hmm. Apparently that could be helpful. Okay. Environmental toxins, bpa, so you know how you see on lots of bottles.

Now. BPA free. BPA free BPA apparently really does disrupt the estrogen producing cycle, and so, You'd want to truly avoid at the very least, BPA and that you see that everywhere. But if you're shopping at the Dollar store, or if you're getting a freebie at a swag thing, that might not be BPA free. Mm-hmm.

So apparently look for BPA free. Okay. Other reasons that pertain more to my field have to do with stress. Stress is thought to be a leading factor. So the more stress that a child is under, the more likely they are to go into earlier. And interestingly, it says a lot. Yeah, it says a lot. And that's why it's, it's like merged and married, which is like, I have always had an interest in puberty and how that affects kids.

Cause I see all the social emotional changes and they're really hard. But now I'm seeing like, oh yeah. And if we don't figure that out, well. We're not setting our kids up to know how to manage stress, to understand what's happening with their bodies. But here's the other, I actually tackle it, which I'm gonna be honest, is, is like a very complex, complicated topic, which is stress leads to another factor that's listed is race.

So black and brown kids are thought to start puberty earlier and I think we can all imagine that. Oh yeah. Sometimes you see these larger, more developed. And what's really interesting, once you dig underneath that, what you actually find is that maybe it's not really race, maybe it's more socioeconomic status, so the lower in the socioeconomic status you are the kids who are in poverty, higher rates of earlier puberty.

So I think there's a complex mix of, of race and socioeconomic status and stress. And those are the sort of the three big ones that I will be focused.

Natalie: Wow. Mm-hmm. Well, it's happening. So the fact that it's happening, we have to address it. Give us a few things, and it's a much bigger topic, but a few things we can do to help our kids or the kids in our community in dealing with this, because I know ultimately for you, knowing you, the mental health side of it is what we are the most

Sheryl: concerned.

Abs. Absolutely. So I will say in no particular order, one of the best things that we can do as parents parents, caregivers, teachers, is understand, accept this. It's very hard for people to go, what? Third, fourth grade? Really keep your eyes wide open.

Understand that this is happening earlier. Get yourself educated.

Two, find the language to talk to your kids about all sorts of things. And I mean everything from, how do I tell my daughter she has to wear a bra to what are the warning signs of depression? I might be seeing that in my kid to three. Am I allowing people to say things to my daughter like, oh, look at you.

You look like a young woman. Right? If they're, if they're taller, if they're more developed, really try to actually educate those around you. Maybe that's grandparents family. Friends, coaches, to treat your child like their age, like their chronological age, don't allow. You know, and it could seem minor, but just sort of manage that and even for yourself, making sure if your kid, like you're a 13 year old, if he is, you know, five 10 already and his voice is dropped, he's still 13.

What does 13 mean? Am I treating him like he's 13? So that one is really important. And I think this piece around, you know, looking at anxiety and understanding that what's happening on social media is having. A true effect on their brains. That's the research that's coming out. They're more sensitive, they're more heightened around them.

They're experiencing more anxiety. If, if you knew the stats, like I think it's nearly 60% of kids are worried they have climate anxiety. They're worried about things like mass shootings and climate change. We as parents need to talk about these things with them. We need to give. Ways to get empowered. And I know as I'm talking right now, you might be picturing, oh, this is a conversation to have with my teenager.

Nope. This is a conversation to be having with your 10, 11, 12 year old. Mm-hmm. Because they're getting it on social media anyway. So either some TikTok or is gonna tell them about the latest school shooting or you know, earth Day's coming up. And I have kids who are worried, we're running out of. I have kids that were worried that, you know, polar bears aren't gonna be alive.

Like, and they're talking about this in therapy. So take those environmental stressors seriously with your kid and talk about it. And if you don't know, I don't know, everything go, gosh, that does sound really concerning. Your teacher was talking about how we're gonna run out of water. Teach me, let's learn together.

What do you think we can. How do we manage this? So these are ways when they're younger, before they're teens, and maybe they're not gonna be asking your opinion anymore. Maybe they're gonna be struggling the same way, but they're not gonna go to you, they're gonna go to their friends. This is the golden age of opportunity.

That's how I look at it. Mm-hmm. Sometimes in the literature, it's referred to as the forgotten years, and so I'm here to say the forgotten years. No. Six to 12 are not this middle child. Oh, whatever happens in middle child, they're cute, they're in elementary school. That's not the world we live in anymore.

So really get educated around it and start treating them like the kids that they are. They're very exposed. So be a part of helping them with that exposure and managing the stress and anxiety that comes with. And

Natalie: being able to talk about it.

I mean, one thing as a teacher and I teach media that I tell parents and kids is, you know, limit.

Your social media take everything with a grain of salt. We know that, but we have to help them manage it versus taking it away. We can't put them in a box. We can't wrap them in bubble wrap. We can't keep them from these stresses. We can try, but they're going to be there. Those stresses. And do you agree with me as a professional on that?

I

Sheryl: do. I do. We call it, you know, really just risk management and there are terms for that, like digital wellness, digital balance. Mm-hmm. I'm absolutely a proponent of that. We can't be all earned. It's not all or nothing. So it's like, yeah, there's everything, there's alcohol, there's sugar, there's social media.

There are a lot of things in our life that maybe in moderation they, they can be okay. It's in excess when it's really not. And I really want people to think about what I just said. Sugar, alcohol, social media. Mm-hmm. They're all potentially addictive. They all belong in the same category. Maybe that paradigm shift will help parents too, to realize it's not benign this screen time.

Yeah. And social media is not just benign and, and something more powerless too. It's just something we're all learning how to balance and.

Natalie: So true. Boy, what a great conversation. Let's do it again soon, because we always have so much to talk about, and I appreciate your expertise and your wisdom, your research, all of that.

Tell people where they can follow you to learn more about the book you're writing, which I know is a year or so away as you're gathering more information. Where can people.

Sheryl: So they can find everything that I do really on my website, dr cheryl ziegler.com and my online girls puberty courses. Start with the talk.com.

Natalie: Fantastic. Thanks so much. Really good to catch up with you.

Sheryl: Thank you. Sorry I was late and I know you have to move on, but let's, let's do this again soon.