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Episode 90: Communication and Breaking the Cycle of Judgment with Dr. Betsy Chung











Brief summary of show:


How do we break the cycle of judgment?


Can we transform the way we communicate, even if it differs from how we were raised?


Why do we, as adults, care so deeply about what our parents and elders think – even all these years later?


These are the questions we’re answering in this episode with Dr. Betsy Chung.


Dr. Betsy Chung is a clinical psychologist in southern California. She has over 10 years experience as a mental health clinician. She specializes in helping people achieve self-esteem and healthy relationships by helping them make sense of their life experiences.

In addition to providing psychotherapy in private practice, Dr. Chung maintains a professional social media account on Instagram under the handle: LoveAlways.DrBetsy, and contributes her expertise to various media outlets including "Tyla on TikTok", and "Share Care, Inc." and has been featured in magazines like "Cosmopolitan", "The Candidly" and "Women's Health" magazine.




Listen in as we talk about:

  • [2:50] Why adults seek the approval of their parents and elders

  • [5:30] Tips to help our kids not take on our own trauma as parents

  • [12:05] Why parents judge each other and how to separate our own perceptions

  • [22:20] Two important things for adults to be able to do

  • [27:45] Setting our kids up to make their own decisions

  • [29:55] Feelings flipchart


Notes from Natalie:


Connect with Dr. Betsy Chung


Connect with Me





View Transcript for this Episode

[00:00:00] Natalie: Betsy, this is a topic I've really been looking forward to because I have a lot of women in particular, and I'm sure men too, but for some reason, women tell me this, that they are still seeking the approval of their elders or their parents. And I know this is something you specialize in, you spend a lot of time on, why do we do that?

And let's get into some ways that we can get over that. If we can

[00:00:24] Dr. Betsy Chung: go. Yeah, definitely. Um, like you said, one of my favorite topics, um, what I, what I like to do usually when it comes to talking about our adult difficulties is I like going back to childhood because I really feel like I, I believe that.

Everything like we are all products of the way that we were raised. And this isn't just saying that it's all the parent's fault or anything like that, but you know, those were our earliest relationships. And so, you know, if you really think about it, when we're born as little infants, we are completely helpless and power.

So we need to rely on our parents to take care of us and feed us and help us with survival. And so infants, all humans, we're born with this internal system that helps us, you know, that warns us when there's something that is threatening to our lives. So if you think about it as infants, our. Our and our primary caregivers, they are actually our survival source, right?

Like, infants can't feed themselves, they can't, you know, walk and take care of themselves. They can't do anything. So for, for infants, they need to be able to be close to their caregivers in order to feel safe and secure. And so when they feel any kind of a separation or maybe even, um, Rejection or, or abandonment or anything like that.

It triggers these very uncomfortable feelings and it causes us as little, you know, even as little kids, to try to seek a way to survive. Mm-hmm. . So basically, you know, like approval seeking for little kids is very, very important because when parents show love, show affection, when they praise their children, those are all signs to a child.

You're doing the right thing that you're, you're, you know that your mom and your dad love you and will continue to be there for you. Um, and so, you know, when a child feels that kind of affection from their parents, they feel safe, and then over time they're able to kind of do that for themselves and then they grow up to be adults that don't need to seek the approval of other people because they trust enough in themselves.

However, when children grow, Um, being raised by parents, and this is a lot related to, um, emotional maturity of parents. Um, you know, how emotional, emotionally intelligent a parent is, um, meaning that, do these parents understand their emotions and how their emotions impact the way they act and how they interact with their children.

So, for example, if you have a little kid who, let's say, you know, Hanging out at home at the end. And then at the end of the day, mom comes home very tired from work if mom can't separate her own tiredness from how she treats her child. Meaning if the child, let's say, is excited for mom to come home and mom's exhausted and you know, and, and she just wants a minute, but she doesn't know how to communicate that to the child, and, and mom says like, leave me alone.

Don't touch me. the child, they're gonna take that as a source of rejection. Mm-hmm. , you know, like, mom, mom's mad at me. I don't know why mom is mad at me. So, you know, that feels really uncomfortable for them. So it makes them really want to do something in order to repair that relationship with their parents in order to get to that.

That feeling of security again. So really when we talk about parental approval, we're, we're really talking about how secure do I feel in my relationship with my parents and how authentic and vulnerable can I be, you know, in, in gaining this, uh, you know, in and I guess like being myself in order to gain this, this love and security.

Yeah, from my.

[00:04:26] Natalie: I have so many thoughts about everything you just said, and one is that as a parent, I, I wanna talk about how we can heal ourselves, but I also wanna talk, because I often think about with three kids, I don't wanna do that to them. I don't ever want them to feel like they have to seek my approval.

As an adult, I've done the best I can to get them into adulthood, so, What I'm hearing you say is that communication and understanding, I've had a bad day. This is not about you, for instance, I just need to sit and have a couple minutes to myself and then I wanna spend time with you. Like communication is really key.

So give me some more tips as parents that we can work with our kids to be sure we're not developing that for them later in their.

[00:05:12] Dr. Betsy Chung: Sure. Yeah, I think that it's really real. I mean, just even what you're saying right now, to be able to recognize that there's a difference between our intentions and what our children.

you know, take in mm-hmm. and, and being able to kind of recognize that is so, so important because we might not be communicating very accurately what we're actually feeling. Mm-hmm. . And so for parents to be able to even be aware and maybe sometimes even walking away from an incident and, and maybe even feeling bad, right?

It's like, oh God, I just, I, I just, I, I think that I just said something really mean to my child right now, and I didn't mean. And to be able to go back and have a talk with your child and say like, Hey, you know, I don't, I don't like the way that that. You know, how did that make you feel? I'm worried that, you know, you feel like you did something wrong.

You didn't do anything wrong. I was tired, and I'm sorry, I shouldn't have spoken to you that way. Right? Because children, they're always watching and they're always trying to make sense of the world. So if the parents don't provide them with an explanation of what's going on and don't provide them with language or even space to, to kind of trial and error in communicating the way that they feel, then children start to kind of make their own sense of what's going on, and that almost becomes their truth.

So if you kind of think about, even, even this, this example of, um, you know, a a, a child that might get the wrong message from their parents, that might become their truth. . Mm-hmm. , right? Is that like, I can't bother people. I don't know when it's okay to approach somebody. Um, so in their adulthood, you know, if they're in a relationship, um, they might not wanna bother their partners.

You know, I don't wanna burden my partners. I don't wanna upset my partners if I need something. So I'm just gonna try to figure out how to meet. On my own, you know, so there's just so many messages that we wanna make sure that, you know, of course there's no such thing as a perfect parent. Literally no such thing as a perfect parent.

You can take even the most educated, you know, um, educated child therapist, you know, and there's. There's no such thing as a parent that's not gonna make mistakes, especially that they also don't have control over what their children are exposed to. Mm-hmm. . And so being able as a parent to also be able to trust that, you know, it's okay to make mistakes.

But self-reflect, you know, think about how you're coming off to your kids. Think about the kinds of messages that you might be sending them, and it's okay to correct those messages. Yeah. You know, so I think that that's, that's really huge. Um, along with that, I guess another tip is it's okay to apologize to your children.

I feel like, you know, Something that can be hard for some parents, especially in certain cultures. For me, for instance, I grew up in a very traditional Chinese background, and so it was really all about, you know, the, the parents or the authorities, they're the ones that are going to work taking care of the children.

They're more wise, and while there is some truth to that, you know, it's the, the, the, I think the, the, the part of that that can be hard sometimes for children is. , there's this belief then that that adults are superior to children, that adults needs are superior to children. That adults never make mistakes.

They're perfect. And so when adults show up imperfectly, and you know, for the children, they don't see that as imperfect. They see that as. , right? Like that's normal to be treated that way. That's normal for people to speak to me in a certain way when they're tired versus being able to kind of recognize like, oh, you know, like I don't, I don't like the way that I was talked to in that situation.

And so no wonder I feel the way that I do. Yeah, like it's, it's more validating when parents are able to apologize and acknowledge mistakes that they make to their children.

[00:09:27] Natalie: Well, I think it's a, an incredible, um, gift to be able to tell your kids, I don't, I don't like the way that happened or I apologize, and that is not easy for, for a lot of people.

But let's, let's, uh, turn it now to talking about us as adults and maybe we're just realizing because of the. Our kids are reacting, or maybe we're just realizing because you feel judged by a parent for a decision you made, either about maybe it's your kids or the house you bought or some, whatever the case might be.

I know there are people listening going, oh yeah, I feel like that I feel judged, or I feel like I need their approval for all kinds of things I do. How would you suggest someone approach the parent or approach that situation when they are feeling that way as a grown.

[00:10:17] Dr. Betsy Chung: Yeah. I, I love that because it, it connects so perfectly to that topic of self-awareness for parents, right?

Like when parents struggle to separate their own perceptions and their own opinions and preferences with that of others, you know, what ends up happening is that they end up expressing their opinions. Truth, and it causes the children to really question themselves. So for example, um, when I was already, I think in my mid twenties, I was already graduated from graduate school, I was like, you know, a postdoctoral intern and, um, you.

basically a full blown adult by that time. And um, I remember at that time I had gotten in a car accident. I've never, you know, gone to purchase my own car. And this was the first car that I would've purchased on my own because any car I had before that was, you know, something that my parents helped me with.

And so I remember that. My mom, um, she, you know, of course I was gonna take her with me to go and buy a new car because, you know, my mom has always been that person that she's very, very good at negotiating. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna bring her with me cuz I wanna get the best deal that I possibly can.

And so when we were at the car dealership, I remember that there were specific cars that I really, really liked. And my mom, you know, at first she was like, you know, yeah, like I think that, I think you're old enough to, you know, get like a somewhat luxury car for yourself. I was like, okay, cool. And I was like really excited about this one car.

And then what ended up happening was that we went home, we thought about it and I still was really excited about that car, but my mom was like, you know, That car, it's, it's a used car. And, you know, so it's, it's nice, but it's not really worth it. Like for the same price you could get a brand new car, um, you know, that, that nobody's ever driven before.

And I was really disappointed, but I was like, okay. And so I ended up getting the car that my mom wanted me to get after I bought it. I thought about, I was. Why did I do that? Like I was paying for this with my own money. Why did I do that? And, you know, I realized that I didn't really trust myself. I didn't trust my own, my own instincts.

I didn't trust my own preference. And so, because my mom said like, because this is a used car. Yes, it looks nice, but it's. You know, this car's probably better. And also because she was gonna be the one negotiating, I didn't know that it was okay for me to say no, you know? Because again, growing up my mom was authority on anything.

I trusted her on everything. So even as an adult, I was like, you know, completely relying on her to make decisions for me, even though if I really think about, if I would've told her, no, I really want that. Can you help me negotiate that car? Because I like it. I am pretty positive she would've done it for me, you know, but that, that need for me to continue to have my mom give me that permission, you know, it was because I didn't really trust my own instincts because I, I didn't grow up, you know, with a parent that really validated the things that I thought was good and, you know, made me.

Confident about choices that I would make. Yeah. Um, you know, like another thing that, um, you know, is, is that, for instance, my mom, you know, she really, she kind of struggled with some anxiety. So whenever I would do something that made her nervous, her response would communicate to me that I did something wrong, versus maybe being able to recognize, like, you know, when you do that, it makes me.

Versus like, oh my God, what is wrong with you? You know, better than that. Mm-hmm. . So again, all of these different messages that I would hear from my mom when in reality these were just kind of her perceptions of things and her feelings about things, because she didn't communicate to me that there's a difference between her feelings and the things that I do and the choices that I make.

you know, that's why I, you know, I over relied on her. Yeah. So,

[00:14:42] Natalie: as an adult, so many of us do. So many of us do.

[00:14:45] Dr. Betsy Chung: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Because when our parents tell us that we, when they praise us, that's a sign that like, okay, I'm doing the right thing. Right? Yeah. So if I, you know, if I kick a ball and I, I, you know, and I kick it in the wrong direction, but my mom was, you know, mom or dad would've been like, Hey, good effort.

You know, that, that was a really good effort. Then I would feel like, okay. You know, I, I'm a person who, who, you know, takes risks and mm-hmm. , and, you know, I trust myself to take risks and, you know, but then if it was like, oh my God, you did so horrible there. What's wrong with you? You're supposed to kick in, in that direction, not that direction.

I might start to question my own athletic abilities. Mm-hmm. , you know, so, so again, like I just demonstrating like the kinds of messages that we received, um, whether it be intentional or not, we take it as. in her childhood as meaning, like, that's who I am as a person. Yeah. So I think healing as an adult really required me to be able to kind of like, recognize that I'm an adult now and I don't, you know, I, I have, I have judgements that I need to learn how to trust my decision.

Our, you know, our reasonable decis decisions, even if they differ from my parents. And so as an adult right now, today, I actually still do go to my parents occasionally. And it's, what's interesting is that I never even noticed that until my husband pointed it out. Like I had a really, you know, big decision to make about something last week.

And my husband was like, did you call your parents? And I was like, I did, do I do that? And he's like, yeah, you do. And I thought about it and I realized, . I do reach out to my parents now, but not really for permission. Yeah. I reach out for them. I realize that I'm allowed to make my own decisions, but I like to at least incorporate sometimes what they think, because the truth is, is that they are wise.

You know, they, they have lived life a lot longer than me and they have been through a lot more experiences, and so I'm interested. To see what they have to say. What is your perspective, you know, is there maybe, are there any blind spots? Yeah. Um, in this decision without approval,

[00:17:03] Natalie: but with, with just input.

Absolutely. Because you value their input. Right. But for people who, and I know they're out there because again, um, I've had these discussions with, with some of the people who listened to the show, who've, who've said otherwise, where I feel like I need approval or, and let's, let's talk about advice for those people.

And sometimes it's tied to, um, , it's tied to something. It might be the will, like do what I say or, and those are the horrible situations that exist sometimes for people. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , what advice would you have for, for some of those people who are being judged and they still love? Maybe it's a brother or sister, or a parent or grandparent and they are being judged and, um, they don't know what to do

[00:17:51] Dr. Betsy Chung: about it.

Right. So again, I'm gonna kind of. Tap back into the childhood. So a lot of times, again, for children, children don't know that they're gray areas in the world. So let's just say that there's a child that you know, would cry about something and the parent being frustrated doesn't know how to stop the child from crying, might reject the child.

I don't, I don't wanna bother with you until you stop crying. Since a child, what that, what they take that as is okay, then I guess I should express my emotions because then I'll lose my relationship and my closeness with my caregivers when, with people that, that are very important to me if I show up in this particular way.

And so these messages that these. You know that, that these kids kind of make sense of these interactions. If nobody corrects that, they're gonna continue to operate throughout their lives as if, if they don't do what this person tells them to do, then they're gonna lose their relationship with them.

They're gonna lose this person's love and affection. And so it's this belief that we hold onto that like we have to do. In order to have a good relationship with these people in order to get good things from these kinds of relationships, when in reality, you know, the truth is, is that most parents, they won't actually abandon their children.

right? They might even, sometimes parents might even think that they will, you know, abandon their, their children. But when it really, really comes down to it, you know, our attachment systems are so strong that many times, you know, when just because parents behave in a certain way, it doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna abandon their children.

But again, if they don't explain that to their children, then the children are gonna believe and hold onto that belief for the rest of their lives. Like, I need to be that. in order for, for, uh, you know, my, my parents to still give me that inheritance. And yeah. Um, one, I think really, really important thing for adults to be able to do, actually, I, I have two.

Number one is to be able to self validate. Any time that you have any cabin kind of a need for anything, there's a reason behind it, a very logical reason behind it, right? So for. Um, even going back to that example with the car that I wanted, right? It's true that, you know, for my mom, she's always purchased new cars.

And new cars do tend to be safer because that means that nobody's ever touched it and you know, there's a warranty on it. So if anything's wrong, you could always bring it back versus like an old car. You know, maybe there's things that have happened to it that you don't really know. And so while that is true, It's also true that I wanted to treat myself to a, you know, a nice car.

You know, this is gonna be my first luxury car. This is gonna be the first time in my life that I actually am making money, and I get to choose something that I want. And that would've kind of almost been like a trophy for me. Right? And so in this situation, you know, if I would've validated that it's okay for me to.

Treat myself. Mm-hmm. , you know, after working so hard to earn my degree. Yeah. Um, if I would've been able to validate that that's true, but also consider the fact like, okay, like new cars, like that makes sense, but I really want this, you know, then maybe I would've been able to kind of communicate that to my mom.

Mm-hmm. , right? Like, you know, mom, I, I, I get it. I, I agree with you that getting a brand new car is probably more practical, but at the same time, you know, , this is important for me. This is kind of representative of me, kind of rewarding myself for my hard work. Mm-hmm. , you know, and so if we're able to communicate those things, In a healthy and positive way.

Then a lot of times we can also get that understanding from our parents as well. The problem is, is that when parents judge and criticize, what that does is it shuts down. our own perspective of things. Mm-hmm. , right? So if my mom were to say like, oh, but that car is so expensive. Like, no, that's not a good idea.

You know, if, if that's a criticism, then that's gonna shut down any, you know, idea for me about like, oh, but this is, this is my own reward, right? Like, I'm just gonna think about what she thought was best. Mm-hmm. . And so being able to, , like validate ourselves and think about, okay, well why do I wanna make this decision that's a little bit different from my parents?

And to be able to explain that to them, that's one very, I guess, adult way of kind of standing up for what you want. And then the other part of it is, you know, the other, I guess like tip would be to learn how to overcome conflicts. Because again, as children we do look up to our. We do over rely on them.

So the truth is, is that they do have some level of, I guess, authority over us. However, when we become adults, we also need to learn how to start. Showing up as adults in our relationships with our parents as well, and that includes overcoming disagreements and overcoming conflicts in a healthy way. You know, a lot of times we might throw adult tantrums, right?

Like, Fight our parents. And you know, like, and, and, and when we do that, what we do is we trigger defensiveness. And when we trigger defensiveness from our parents, then they're gonna be defensive. And then that's gonna trigger our defensiveness and it's gonna create what we call like an escalation trap.

Mm-hmm. , where like people, you know, two people are just trying. To win an argument versus learning how to effectively, you know, so, so again, in that example, it's like, mom, you know, I really appreciate, um, your, your, your advice and the fact that buying a new car probably is more cost effective. You know, it would make me feel a little bit safer, however, this is how I feel about that.

Mm-hmm. You know, this is how I feel and this is why I wanted the, the choice that I'm making. Right. And when we're able to approach. Conflicts in that way, a lot of times the other person is able to actually hear. versus being busy defending and you know, defending like our response back to them. It's like, I don't want that car.

Like, why are you always trying to push things on me? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:51] Natalie: Well, and I, I think now with a 21 year old and an 18 year old, when they're able to tell me why they really feel a certain way, after listening to my advice, I have so, like, as a mom that makes me so proud. Like, you've thought through this, not what I would do.

Okay. You've thought through it, you've, you, you're making good decisions for what you need in the moment. So I'm thinking, I'm always thinking as the mom and as the individual. Yes. And not wanting to, you know, pass on things in our lives that maybe weren't as good for, you know, generationally. Right. So I love that advice and, and ultimately isn't that what we want is to feel good about our decisions and Yeah.

For us to. Kids who make good

decisions.

[00:25:36] Dr. Betsy Chung: Yeah. I mean, look at what you're setting your kids up for, right? Because the truth is, is that, you know, parents are not gonna be around forever. Yeah. And parents aren't gonna be able to predict all of the different things that their kids are gonna be going through.

Right. So it doesn't make sense for a parent. Force their children to handle things in a certain way if they don't know if their child's lives are gonna go in that direction. So I think that the skill really, that parents need to teach their children is to be good decision makers. Mm-hmm. , to be able to, you know, regulate their emotions and being, be in a state where they can actually consider, you know, different aspects of a situation and reach out for help from people, for instance.

Right. Like so, When my parents aren't here anymore, I would hope that when I am confronted with a big decision, that I'll be able to know what kinds of relationships that I can trust Yeah. To reach out to. Yeah. You know, so when I go to my parents now and they, you know, like, it was actually really interesting, um, because, you know, last week when I reached out to my parents, um, both of them were on, on speaker phone.

And even just hearing my mom. , you know, I'm realizing that, you know, it's, it's not all about money. You know, it's not all about money. Decisions in our lives. Like, you gotta be happy, you know, so I, I trust you, you know, do what you feel is right and, um, you know, and, and I will help. And I remember, oh, that's empowering.

Yeah. . Yes. Yes. Because you know, like I remembered that after that conversation, my parents didn't give me any advice at all. Not a single piece of advice, but I felt so much more empowered and so much more motivated because I knew that if things got bad, you know, if I became too overwhelming, I, I can lean on them.

Yeah. You know, I can ask them for help. Yeah.

[00:27:51] Natalie: Such great advice and, and so many things to think about. I've, I've really learned from this as a mom and as an individual, um, and especially, and I know we could, we could spend a whole nother podcast talking about, just looking back and realizing why we feel the way we do coming from.

Maybe divorced families and then stepparents and things that maybe changed the way we communicated or felt or looked for approval. And those are all factors in how we, how we, uh, adult and parents later in life. Yeah. I know you love this stuff and you think a lot about this stuff, so .

[00:28:30] Dr. Betsy Chung: Yeah. Yeah, I absolutely do.

Um, you know, if, if I can even throw out another really important thing that I. , almost all of my clients that come in is, I have this, this little flip chart that's nothing but feelings. I'll actually show it to you. So you know, I have this flip chart and all it is is it's kind of like that same, that same, that same thing that you might see on the walls in, in elementary school.

Yeah. You know, I feel like this is so, so important

[00:29:02] Natalie: because, and say what those are. Because some people watch on YouTube and some people listen, but I'm looking uhhuh. I'm feeling disgusted. Yes.

[00:29:10] Dr. Betsy Chung: So ectatic, these are just

[00:29:13] Natalie: embarrassed. So is it identifying in this moment I'm crying and I don't know why I'm crying.

And then looking at your chart and saying, oh, that's the feeling. Yes. Is that what that is that what that's

[00:29:26] Dr. Betsy Chung: about? Absolutely. Being able. To put words to how we feel on the inside, because our internal processes, those are very important. That's what warns us about things. That's what informs us about what's going on in our environments and you know, our internal processes.

We need to try our very best to align those with how we. externally, because when we don't, then we send all sorts of wrong messages. Um, we react in ways that might not make sense for other people. And that becomes very, I'm gonna say lonely over time because it feels like nobody knows us, nobody understands us, you know?

So something as simple as right now I'm feeling very frustrated. You know, you just keep talking over me. That is very important because if we can't communicate that, then we might continue to talk over the other person. Um, we might think that, that those feelings that we're getting, you know, those very flustered feelings are anger.

So we might behave in an angry way and, you know, and accidentally communicate things that we don't mean to communicate. Um, and causing the other person to react towards us in a way. is not beneficial or aligned with what we actually need. Yeah, so for example, sometimes what we really need is reassurance, but the ways that we express those anxieties actually causes people to not wanna be close to us.

Right. Like, so for instance, like if we feel anxious about something and we, you know, express like, let's use jealousy for instance. We feel jealous. That's the source of anxiety, right? However, when we use anger to express those jealousies, then that's gonna cause our partners to really push away from us because anger is meant to.

right? Anger is meant to intimidate and push away threat. So when I'm gonna respond in an angry way because I feel jealous, that's gonna cause my partner to back off. Rather than being able to recognize like, oh, in that moment right now, I felt jealous because my internal systems are, are, are warning me.

you know, I might lose my partner to this other person, you know, and, and based on whatever childhood experiences you had, you know, that, that, you know, those feelings all plays in Yeah. Be a lot more accessible. Right. And so in those situations, rather than get that reassurance from our partners, like, you know, I felt really jealous in that situation because I saw you talking to that person, you know, in a way that made me feel uncomfortable.

If we can tell our partners that, then hopefully our par partners will, will know it's. You're silly. You know, like that's just me having a conversation. I'm just a nice person, you know? But I love you and I would never do that to you. Right. So you see the difference? Mm-hmm. , like being able to really kind of understand our emotions and behave in a way that is aligned with how we feel on the inside is so, so important to relationship.

[00:32:44] Natalie: And what I'm hearing as a theme is communication. Oh, identification and communication. Knowing why you feel that way and uh, and then being able to talk about that instead of just shoving it down like so many people, myself included, do and then wonder why we blow up or have an issue or whatever it is.

Cause we haven't dealt.

[00:33:06] Dr. Betsy Chung: Exactly. Yeah. Oh

[00:33:08] Natalie: boy. Well, a lot of deep stuff here in, uh, in 30 minutes. So let's, uh, let's give people a little bit more information on where they can follow you and find you and, um, and

[00:33:18] Dr. Betsy Chung: learn from you. Sure. So, Um, it, it's been a little bit slow, but I do have an Instagram page. Um, you know, lots and lots of content about relationships and childhood relationships, how that affects us today.

Um, and so that's gonna be on Instagram and my handle is love, always Dr. Betsy. And anybody that might be interested in working with me or seeing you know what I do, um, you can visit my website at www.drbetsychung.com.

[00:33:48] Natalie: Great. Thank you so much for your time today and your insight. It's really fun to meet you and continue to learn and get

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